Why is toxic fandom destroying everything?

[JD]

The point was that in the grand scheme of things, there's no evidence the propagandists had influence over millions of moviegoers--enough to lead to the box office failure of the film. The responsibility for that film's failure rests with its creators and they alone decided was worth putting in front of a camera. Entertainers taking responsibility for their own actions / choices is a lost, positive character trait in this era. If a creative effort is a disaster, surely its the fault of the (fill in the enemy of choice), and not those in the entertainment business at all.

The issue is it wasn't a disaster, there were very few negative reactions to it, Disney either overestimated how interested people were in seeing these three characters again, or marketed it in a way that didn't appeal to a wide enough audience. What was put on screen wasn't the problem, it was getting people to go see what was onscreen that was the problem.

 

[Anwar]

Star Wars' setting does not allow for or excuse the rampant and uncontrolled bigotry and hatred amongst the online fandom. Nothing excuses that kind of behavior.

Of course it doesn't excuse it, I'm just saying that because Star Wars was traditionally as "White" as it was I could understand the backlash when Disney decided to try and pull the series into the 21st century.

 

[StarTrek1701]

Star Wars' setting does not allow for or excuse the rampant and uncontrolled bigotry and hatred amongst the online fandom. Nothing excuses that kind of behavior.

People talk about how fandom is now marked with rampant racism and bigotry but fail to provide any proof whatsoever.
It's like as a white person I should be scared to critique anything with non-white people in them no matter how bad the movies or tv are.
Don't blame fandom when storytellers themselves are horrible at causing the crash and burn of the IP's.
Look at Joker 2, was its failure caused by racism and bigotry?

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

I don't know if anyone's claiming that fans have become more racist and bigoted recently... the racists and bigots have ALWAYS been there, the internet has just made them much louder as social media boosts negativity.

Also I criticise stuff all the time and the only time that anyone's ever questioned where my opinions are coming from is when I've mentioned my dislike of recasting roles with new actors who don't resemble the old ones. I explained myself, it worked out fine. It's still okay to critique things in my experience.

And lots of things can be to blame for things! What caused The Flash to bomb? The lacklustre story, the bad visual effects, Ezra Miller's behaviour off screen, Superhero fatigue? We don't actually know, we can only speculate, but it's probably a little of everything. Right now someone somewhere is spreading the narrative that X project is bad because of the woke agenda, and the louder the noise they make, the more people are going to listen.

 

[theenglish]

It's like as a white person I should be scared to critique anything with non-white people in them no matter how bad the movies or tv are.

I don't feel that way at all and nobody has ever called me a racist for criticizing something. There are a number of tells if someone is being genuine or are trying to disguise what their attitudes and opinions really are. So, I wouldn't worry if you are coming from the place you say.

I don't know if anyone's claiming that fans have become more racist and bigoted recently... the racists and bigots have ALWAYS been there, the internet has just made them much louder as social media boosts negativity.

I don't think that people's attitudes have really changed necessarily, it is just that people know that being racist, sexist, or bigoted is considered by society in general to be morally wrong. As such, people have tended to keep their opinions to themselves except when around like minded individuals. The rise of social media has enabled people to realize that they are others who think and feel like they do. In some cases, such as the non-binary teen living in a small town, this has had a really positive affect; in others it creates communities for people to voice their racist/bigoted beliefs without fear. Bullies like to surround themselves with other bullies.

 

[StarTrek1701]

I don't feel that way at all and nobody has ever called me a racist for criticizing something. There are a number of tells if someone is being genuine or are trying to disguise what their attitudes and opinions really are. So, I wouldn't worry if you are coming from the place you say.

Unfortunately no matter how well I articulated why Obi-Wan / She-Hulk / Acolyte tv shows sucked, I got banned in several forums ((not TrekBBS, other ones)) for "racism and bigotry" when all my arguments was about Obi-Wan's fight with Darth Vader was an egregious continuity issue, She-Hulk could have saved budget by not having She-Hulk as a fully CGI character and Acolyte should have had a linear narrative.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Damn man, if that's true and if it's the whole story, then that's terrible. That kind of negative experience isn't doing anyone any favours, it just makes people bitter.

 

[theenglish]

Unfortunately no matter how well I articulated why Obi-Wan / She-Hulk / Acolyte tv shows sucked, I got banned in several forums ((not TrekBBS, other ones)) for "racism and bigotry" when all my arguments was about Obi-Wan's fight with Darth Vader was an egregious continuity issue, She-Hulk could have saved budget by not having She-Hulk as a fully CGI character and Acolyte should have had a linear narrative.

If that's true, then that is pretty awful. I would have disagreed with point one (not to be brought up here), but point 2 is correct and I wish She-Hulk was given more seasons because the writing and acting were spectacular. I haven't seen The Acolyte yet.

But, people there have been some intense discussions here and people tend to be respectful. I am probably one of the first to call out those who dog whistle racist tropes when I spot them--and I have probably gone over the line on occasion, but I understand that we all come to this board because we love Star Trek and Science Fiction/Fantasy and the positive beliefs and philosophies that dominate those genre.

As nerds, we all love to debate and argue over the "nits", but in the end we all love many of the same things.

 

[Anwar]

People talk about how fandom is now marked with rampant racism and bigotry but fail to provide any proof whatsoever.
It's like as a white person I should be scared to critique anything with non-white people in them no matter how bad the movies or tv are.
Don't blame fandom when storytellers themselves are horrible at causing the crash and burn of the IP's.
Look at Joker 2, was its failure caused by racism and bigotry?

The instant the "fans" saw Rey and Finn in the first teasers the reaction was "STAR WARS IS SJW NOW!"

And yes, a lot of fans are laying the majority of the blame of Joker 2 on Lady Gaga more than anyone else.

 

[Set Harth]

Acolyte should have had a linear narrative.

That seems a somewhat trivial objection, not really justification for declaring that something "sucked".

 

[The Realist]

Damn man, if that's true and if it's the whole story

Betcha dollars to doughnuts it isn't.

 

[Forbin]

It's not "somehow." Republicans have self-selected for it.

Not all of us. We moderates are as sick of the extreme right and religious loonies as you are (and as we are of the extreme left).

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Not all of us. We moderates are as sick of the extreme right and religious loonies as you are (and as we are of the extreme left).

I think most people would absolutely acknowledge (and be glad) that people like you exist. But under the circumstances, it's hard to see you as even remotely representative of the current Republican party or to see that party as even remotely representative of you. And it's not really unreasonable to describe the situation as self-selected when Republican voters keep voting for more and more extremist politicians pretty much all over the country and usually with massive majorities.

 

[UssGlenn]

Of course it doesn't excuse it, I'm just saying that because Star Wars was traditionally as "White" as it was I could understand the backlash when Disney decided to try and pull the series into the 21st century.

Just because I like being pedantic, and I think it's funny...

Star Wars isn't actually "white". The majority of human characters are what we would describe on Earth as ethnically Maori.

 

[MikHutch]

Oh, it's the shorthand that threw me.

Basically, comments that seek to generalize, paint with broad strokes, etc . In this case, lumping together toxic criticism and constructive criticism together under one banner of toxic criticism. At this point, no criticism at all can be had as the door is closed to criticism of any kind, even if it may be helpful. And as mentioned, it doesn't help when producers are partaking in that toxicism by lashing out. Not listening to the toxic criticism is one thing, and nor should they. In the past, when the internet was not a thing, they weren't getting vitriol and were able to just do their thing. Now that's a bit more difficult as they're more exposed, but all the same, they should be able to control themselves better. The problem with this era of productions is that by shutting themselves out of any form of constructive criticism, both positive and negative, they aren't effectively learning about what's working and what isn't. It then starts to feel like any production is adverse to criticism, and no discussion can be had at that point. By that notion, they would be isolated within their own echo chamber, only getting reinforced by their own ideas that might sound great on paper but in fact be terrible in execution with nobody to tell them so until they air. And fans are supposedly to blame?

But is that actually that prevalent? how many constructive criticisms are actually shut down vs fans just thinking their own subjective opinions are objective? Then acting like victims because not everyone agrees? I'm honestly more tired of the needless fan negativity, even as someone with several of my own complaints.

Unfortunately no matter how well I articulated why Obi-Wan / She-Hulk / Acolyte tv shows sucked, I got banned in several forums ((not TrekBBS, other ones)) for "racism and bigotry" when all my arguments was about Obi-Wan's fight with Darth Vader was an egregious continuity issue, She-Hulk could have saved budget by not having She-Hulk as a fully CGI character and Acolyte should have had a linear narrative.

that's unfortunate. A lot of fans are annoyed by the constant racism and sexism, though, so I can see why many are skeptical of 'criticism'

 

[Owain Taggart]

But is that actually that prevalent? how many constructive criticisms are actually shut down vs fans just thinking their own subjective opinions are objective? Then acting like victims because not everyone agrees? I'm honestly more tired of the needless fan negativity, even as someone with several of my own complaints.

More prevalent than you think. It's been discussed in this very thread, even several postings above yours by multiple people. And not by people playing victim. Just people pointing things out as concerned people. I mean look, people have valid things to say, and it doesn't all mean they're out to be negative or toxic. Thinking otherwise only leads down a slippery slope.

 

[cooleddie74]

Just because I like being pedantic, and I think it's funny...

Star Wars isn't actually "white". The majority of human characters are what we would describe on Earth as ethnically Maori.

Fair point.

 

[fireproof78]

But is that actually that prevalent? how many constructive criticisms are actually shut down vs fans just thinking their own subjective opinions are objective? Then acting like victims because not everyone agrees? I'm honestly more tired of the needless fan negativity, even as someone with several of my own complaints.

Ultimately, it takes work to actually go out and find a constructive conversation (and yes I'm guilty of this too). It's far easier to post drive bys, say that "oh the audience hates 'X' because of 'Y' rather than engaging in meaningful analysis.

I recall on another forum were the debate would often get sidelined by using "Cinema Sins" as if that was the ultimate shut down of a film being bad. It really wasn't but the conversation would invariably diminish because of those talking points.

I'm honestly tired of fan negativity too but its often the easier path.

 

[BillJ]

Unfortunately no matter how well I articulated why Obi-Wan / She-Hulk / Acolyte tv shows sucked, I got banned in several forums ((not TrekBBS, other ones)) for "racism and bigotry" when all my arguments was about Obi-Wan's fight with Darth Vader was an egregious continuity issue, She-Hulk could have saved budget by not having She-Hulk as a fully CGI character and Acolyte should have had a linear narrative.

“Egregious continuity issue!”

I somehow doubt you got tossed over simple continuity issues.

 

[cooleddie74]

Yeah, nobody gets run off a message board for contesting continuity issues, and certainly not here - not unless the poster is a wimp who flounces when challenged on basic assertions. If "racism and bigotry" were stated reasons....something happened.