Yeah, I didn't want to exaggerate.
What ships SHOULD they have used in the Dominion War?
- Thread starter Arpy
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Reminds me of the PIC novel The Dark Veil that includes a ship the size of a continent.
…used by a group of aliens who ripped apart their homeworld to create a mega ship to transport their entire population.
I might keep that shot…but put it on a bridge monitor or something…
A good way to show Starfleet’s improvements would be in the Dominion making short work of post-Wolf 359 Frankenfleet ships early on, and new VFX of the Class of 96 First Contact ships at the close of the Dominion War.
Older VFX to show Feds losing—new VFX to show them winning…an in-screen demonstration of technological development.
Odyssey did poorly as a stock Galaxy…I see the Galaxy wing with no civilians but the flight deck full of power units to allow them much better shielding.
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Yeah, they're... quite something.
Uh huh,.. and if you check the footage every other ship in the fleet was similarly decimated because those weapons were fired from orbital defence platforms which are dedicated to weapons, shields and thrusters for quick adjustments in positioning)... ships on the other hand have to divert power between a variety of systems (warp drive, life support, shields, weapons, impulse engines, etc.).
In fact, from this very clip, I can see an Akira class (which is a 24th century contemporary design) actually being destroyed, while this Excelsior may be damaged but has otherwise survived.
There's no reason to think that Excelsior and other 100 year old designs we saw in the Dominion War weren't on the same level of other modern 24th century ships in terms of technology (sans maybe Quantum torpedoes).
SF would likely be idiotic to send their ships with 100 year old outdated technology into combat.
Besides, we know that SF regularly upgrades and refits all their ships in active service. Those Excelsiors and Mirandas we saw were all sporting TNG LCARS and other modern technology even in TNG, so it stands to reason they were ALREADY on par with most modern ships in the mid-late 24th century by the time TNG rolled out.
When fear of Dominion War loomed, Leyton spearheaded upgrades for the USS Lakota that basically made an Excelsior class roughly comparable to the Defiant class ship of the 24th century.
Leyton may have been paranoid, and his overall goals were utterly stupid, but one thig he did do right was to upgrade the Lakota to the level it was at (and presumably all other 100 year old designs) so it can be a formidable vessel that can go toe to toe with any other modern ship.
Maybe they focused on ships that were actually a threat. They could finish off weaker ships later or take prisoners. Maybe they targeted ships already damaged from previous battles to minimize targets ASAP. We don’t really know what’s going on.
I don’t see why Excelsiors couldn’t be fitted to fire quantum torpedoes, if they’d need any changes at all to. But yeah, if 100 year old ships were just as good as new ones, what’s the point of new ones? Upgrades might be possible but they get more expensive/difficult with time. Especially as they appear in Trek where there’s NO changes to the look of the ships. You just reach a point at which it’s easier to build newer ships, with fewer tradeoffs and limits.
Yup.
Unclear how strong it was in the field. The Defiant was trying not to have to destroy the Lakota. Could be that it was much stronger than other 24th century versions (never mind 23rd century versions) but that in practice the Defiant still held the advantage.
The Lakota was also holding back - Benteen had orders to stop and board the Defiant, not destroy her. It's the order to do so that leads her to realise Leyton has gone too far and to surrender.
The Defiant seemed to have the edge due to her armour, but they were pretty evenly matched.
Quantum torpedoes seem to be generally limited in availability, because I don't think see any ships use them in DS9 except for the Defiant and the Valiant.
The Defiant seemed to have the edge due to her armour, but they were pretty evenly matched.
Quantum torpedoes seem to be generally limited in availability, because I don't think see any ships use them in DS9 except for the Defiant and the Valiant.
Quantum Torpedoes were only starting to get ramped up in production right before the Dominion War, they were the "New Hotness" in torpedo tech, so quantities were probably limited and spread about the fleet which means everybody didn't have that many.
Once you get manufacturing up to snuff, everybody can have them in mass, but until then, it's limited in production capacity.
Apparently, whatever aspects of the Quantum Torpedo that can't be replicated must be made the old fashioned way, so it must be a intricate / delicate process before final assembly and distribution to the fleet.
We kinda do since the goal of orbital defences is to stop (and likely destroy) incoming ships.
I agree that there is no reason to think other Excelsiors or even Mirandas couldn't be outfitted with Quantums either - and they probably could be.
The only thing is that majority of ships during fleet scenes in DS9 were seen firing Photon Torpedoes - probably because the non canon DS9 TM says the Quantums were more difficult/slower to produce.
As for what's the point of new designs if the 100 year old ones are just as good as the new ones with upgrades... well, its simple:
SF likely CEASED production of Excelsiors and Miranda's at some point in the late 23rd century (or possibly early 24th) and dedicated resources to new ships class production - keeping the existing 100 year old designs on par with modern vessels is just prudent if there's otherwise nothing wrong with them. Especially if SF had a lot of them - and they had to be useful to SF for exploration, science, defence, humanitarian missions, etc.
SF has different ship classes for different mission profiles and likes to experiment with them to see which ones work and which ones don't.
Upgrading existing ships is arguably simpler and more resource efficient than building new ones from scratch.
For example, using transporters and replicators, you can easily grab individual parts of the ship, recycle them in the matter stream, then reconfigure it into modern component and materialize it back in place.
SF ships are modular by nature, and they are usually designed to last 100 to 200 years anyway - but as I said, in the 24th century, if you simply use matter recycling and transporters with pre-existing ships, then add more energy, you can basically disassemble sections of the ship internally and externally and 'refresh' its overall infrastructure after 25 to 50 years of active service and keep it updated with the times... it will then effectively be like a brand new ship.
And we've seen SF did create Excelsior II for example.... so they probably liked the class to the point where they gave it a 25th century makeover.
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if many of those Excelsior II ships are actually older Excelsiors that were converted to new ones using the process I described.
The Lakota was fitted with Quantums, and neither ship was actively TRYING to destroy the other.
While the Lakota was said to be in arguably worse shape, the Defiant wasn't far behind - and the Defiant was fitted with Ablative hull armour (whereas the Lakota wasn't) - that just goes to show that had the Lakota been fitted with Ablative hull armour, its likely it would have subdued the Defiant.
In the real world, the process of cost efficiency can certainly result in some bad products.
Since SF doesn't use money though, I would imagine they emphasize quality above all else (though to be fair, LaForge did describe the Titan-A as having 'paper thin hull', but that wasn't necessarily meant to be taken literally).
SIF can easily reinforce the hull well beyond typical baselines to withstand massive stresses of FTL travel for example.
Its just possible the Titan-A never had particularly strong SIF generator - or it was pulled from the original Titan and never upgraded (or it was due for an upgrade, but because the ship was pulled from its original mission and dragged into dealing with a pretty substantial threat, it never got the chance to do that)
The ships of the 23rd-25th century all seem to share same type of mettalurgy and principles if ST: Disco S3 is any indication.
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My point was that we don’t know what methodology they were using in their targeting or the circumstances of the attack, whether the Akira was already damaged or how long/by how many it had been targeted vs the Excelsior.
We saw Excelsiors running cargo and Miranda’s doing other work with minimal crews. They had not been upgraded to top of the line warships and exploration ships, and it would not have made sense to for what is basically sentimental and esthetic reasons. With their technologies no longer on par with their adversaries, ships largely get relegated to other tasks (with various levels of upgrade), if not being retired altogether.
Doesn’t matter if they had a 100 Daedaluses still intact, they’re not used in combat in the 24th Century. Ditto the Soyuz Class or the D12 Klingon Bird of Prey variant from GEN, or hundreds of others over hundreds of spacefaring years that weren’t seen in combat. We have intact hulls from WWII and earlier era combat ships today, but the oldest in use in the US Navy are around 40 years old.
If they're using replicators to remake every part of an old ship, they can use them to make better newer ones. The Lakota was great, but it needed the entire hull replaced with ablative armor to match teeny weeny Defiant. They could do that, or build a Prometheus—with multi-vector assault mode to boot.
I think those are entirely new ships with esthetic homages to old ones. There’s nothing there of the actual Excelsiors.
They could be, but newer / tougher ship designs would get priority given the survival / attrition rates during the Dominion War.
We do know that there was HEAVY losses during the Dominion War.
While the Excelsiors / Mirandas were refitted, they probably still had higher loss rates then newer ships like the (Akira / Galaxy / Nebula / Defiant) Classes.
So there would be a priority list based on survivability.
Especially since Quantums were in short supply during the Dominion War and the supply chain for mass producing Quantums wasn't there.
The Mass Production Supply Chain was probably very well established for Photon Torpedoes.
Ergo, the vast volume available to every StarShip within StarFleet.
I think the next great improvement for the classic "Photon Torpedoes" is the MIRV like Photon Torpedo we saw with the Texas Class.
Imagine every Photon Torpedo splitting into 6/7 independent War Heads and near simultaneously impacting the targets shields at multiple locations.
That sudden shock would be "Devastating" to nearly any type of ship.
Now add in the Launch Bay style Tubes of the Galaxy Class and it's ability to fire 10x Photon Torpedoes simultaneously.
Add in Multiple Torpedo Bay Launchers for alternating Rapid Fire capabilities.
A single Volley of 10x Photon Torpedoes can eventually split into 60-70x Warheads simultaneously impacting the shields at different points.
Repeated Volleys can eventually wear down anybodies shields, even with Multi-Layer Shields & Multiple Shields.
Quantums were established just before the Dominion War kicked off, but the Mass Production Facilities were only ramping up, and the war just started.
So it's going to take time to get Mass Production up to snuff while the War is going on.
Resourcess for everything is going to all sorts of places, so allocation isn't guranteed based on Upper Management Directives as to where those resources go
Technical man power shortages are every where given the massive losses of StarFleet officers and territories getting conquered / subjugated by the Dominion.
Imagine how devastating losing a entire Star Systems when it gets captured by the Dominion.
Each Star System loss would be devastating to the over-all Economic & Supply Chain Network within the UFP.
Every Star System conquered by the Dominion:
- loss in Territory
- loss in General Economic Man Power & RAW Economic Output by the resident populace
- loss in Accesiblity to Common Resources & Energy Output
- loss in Manufacturing Facilities
- loss in Unique Resources
- loss in Skilled Labor
- loss in Recruitable Talent for StarFleet
- loss in Morale / Faith in the UFP to protect you when trouble comes along and disrupts your daily life
Every loss of a Star System with a major populace is a BIG deal, and we knew that StarFleet lost ALOT of Territory during the early days of the Dominion War.
During the "Golden Age" of Exploration, StarFleet got arrogant, they thought they were "UnTouchable". That myth was quickly shattered after initial Borg Encounter was barely stopped right at Earth's Orbit.
Then the Dominion War came, and the 2nd attempt to conquer Earth by "The Borg" + Time Travel shenanigans.
I don't think StarFleet realized that the very existence of the UFP was in jeapordy and a very real possibility of becoming extinct until after the initial Borg Encounter & the devastating losses at the Battle of Wolf 359.
Even then, it took the UFP / StarFleet a long time to respond, it took the Dominion War + 2nd Borg Encounter over Earth to finally kick the UFP & the Federation Council in the face to realize that everything they hold dear can easily be lost if they didn't militarize and stay ready. It's too late to "Be Ready" when you feel like it.
Ergo, StarFleet wasn't given the resources necessary to update the Excelsiors / Mirandas until the Dominion War was upon them. Even then it was a "Rush Job". Ergo the heavy losses.
It depends, why else would there be Orbital ShipYards and Dry Docks for manufacturing StarShips if everything can be replicated.
The fact is that not Everything can be replicated. The Skeletal Frame of a Ship seems to need to be assembled and Welded/Bonded together given how large a vessel is.
Floor Plates seem to need be installed before sections of a ship can get installed or Teleported into place or however it's done.
Then there's the vast amount of wiring that needs to run through conduits along with EPS grid that needs to be put in place and tested for leaks.
Anybody who has dealt with plumbing knows how tedious it is to validate everything.
Then installing the numerous technical hardware into the walls like "Sensors, Gravity Plating, Force Field Emitters, Computer Panels, etc".
All that takes time, even with a automated Work Force to Manufacture, Install, Test, Validate, etc.
Heck even the "Alien Repair Station" in ST:ENT had Mechanical Arms dealing with small sections at a time and replicating & de-materializing some areas for massive damage to a section of the ship.
That still took several days, which was orders of magnitude faster than what StarFleet could do which Trip said it would take many weeks for them to accomplish the same thing.
Even if StarFleet can get full Automated Manufacturing with Replicator Integration where possible, human validation & testing would still eat up a giant chunk of time.
Anybody who has done IRL Systems Integration / Testing / Validation knows thats a HUGE time sink. Anything that slips through, you have to come back and fix, which costs more man hours.
Remember, when you're Upgrading like with the Retro-Fit of the connie, you still have to disassemble, then reassemble.
It's still faster to make a brand new StarShip from scratch then to break apart a existing StarShip.
Something as massive as a StarShip is a time intensive task to break down. It's usually easier to strip the StarShip frame of it's important components that are "UFP/StarFleet" property and of critical importance.
Then a PMC or Private Company can outfit the frame with their own Tech / Armor and become a Private Vessel for hire.
The Fact that Cristobal Rios had his own cool little StarShip after retiring from StarFleet shows there is a economy for PMC like companies who operate their own StarShip for their own business reasons.
Imagine seeing Private Sector "Mirandas / Connies", retro-fitted with Non UFP/StarFleet (Tech/Armor/Equipment/Furnishings/etc). That would be ALOT of fun to see.
The only thing that is the same is the rough hull shape and profile.
Classic designs never go away. Just look at IRL, the modern Mustang isn't that different shape wise from the classic one, yet we see it all over the place.
Even in my 26th Century Head Cannon, the "Excelsior Mk. 3" class is the backbone of the Logistics Division within the UFP/UIFIS (UFP Integrated Forces of InterStellar Services)/SLS (SpaceLift Logistics Service) in ensuring delivery of Supplies to all StarShips / StarBases within the UFP and to the Frontier / Explored Territories where a StarShip/StarBase might be located at.
The Titan was retro-fitted with parts from the Luna Class that was damaged. So it's hull was probably not nearly as strong as some of the previous designs given the logistics issues after the Synth Rebellion and the effects it had on StarFleet wide Ship Building.
It's weird that the 32nd Century Designs seem to emphasize Rapid Hull Regeneration/Restoration over more Duruable Hulls in the first place and rely even more on Force Fields to hold things together due to their over reliance on Programmable Matter. I think it's more of a Doctrinal Shift in Ship building that forces StarFleet to move in that direction in the late 29th century to 32nd century. The Burn must've also affected their Doctrinal Reliance on Programmable Matter IMO.
They also seem to focus on Agility / Speed, ergo the detached Nacelles / StarDrives from their Saucer Sections.
But fat lot that 'Agility / Speed' does for them at STL when Beam Weapons move at the Speed of Light.
They still don't emphasize on "Point Defense" like modern day vessels. That's a HUGE aspect of modern warfare.
Destroy incoming projectiles (Torpedoes, Slow Traveling Energy Projectiles). StarFleet still hasn't learned it's basic lessons.
There's no need to take damage if the incoming projectile / weapons fire can be intercepted ahead of time before impacting Shields.
That makes you that much stronger / tougher.
They don't even focus on Multi-Layered Armored Hulls / Shielding with Quick Off-Line Regenerative Shield Emitters.
You saw how fast the Nova Class can Regenerate their Shield Emitters to 100% if taken off-line. It took them 45 seconds to rechare their Shield Emitters to 100% when offline.
As with most Electronic Devices, Recharging is FAR slower when the device is active and in use, especially heavy use.
Fast Recharging can only occur when a device is brought offline.
Now imagine with Multi-Layered Shields and Multiple Shield Emitters, you can have 3x Layers of Shields with the Outter Shields having 2-7x Seperate Shield Emitters depending on Ship Design.
Knock off 1x Shield, you have the 2nd Shield bringing you right back to 100%, the offline Shield can rapidly regen.
Having multiple layers of Shields means if the First layer doesn't catch the incoming Weapons Fire, the 2nd or 3rd layer can catch it.
Add in Ablative Hull Armor into the base of the Hull, add in Ablative Hull Generator for a sacrificial Armor Layer that can be easily & quickly regenerated.
You have yourself a FAR tougher ship design Doctrine at the cost of more resources needed per ship.
Yes, it's a doctrinal shift, but it's one I prefer, instead of depending on Programmable Matter to patch up holes in your hull.
I'd argue that Programmable Matter is better used as a "Band-Aid" in combat until real repairs can be put in place when combat is over.
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Don't both series take place after the Dominion War?
What that have to do with it? How long was the Enterprise in service before we saw it in TOS? Presumably not all the ships were in service only after the war.
I'm late to the game here, but does anyone know why we didn't see more of the Ambassador Class? Not just in DS9 battle scenes, but in TNG and DS9 in general. My guess is that the production/studio didn't want to "confuse" the viewer since the Enterprise-C had been an Ambassador Class. I would have loved to see a bunch of Ambassadors in the battle scenes, as well as additional Nebulas.
It was because after “Emissary,” the Ambassador class studio model was damaged and crated up. So that’s why we didn’t see it after that, and why it wasn’t scanned into a CGI model for the Dominion war fleet. The only ships they didn’t want to use at the time was the Enterprise-E, Voyager, and the Defiant, which were the ‘hero’ ships at the time (during the Dominion war, we only see the Defiant herself and no other ships of her class, and we see zero Sovereigns and Intrepids.)
It was originally going to be refurbished to appear at the end of Generations, but the model was damaged after its last appearance as the Yamaguchi in DS9's Emissary.
God bless Ex Astiris Scientia. They have pages on ships from PRO and LD. I think all the ones from PRO are probably from after the Dominion War, but a few from LD might be from during/before if we’re going by registration numbers—if not, then more might be in play including from PRO.
They are the California, Parliament, and Passaro Classes.
There are others as well noted on the pages linked above, but they’re not named classes.
They are the California, Parliament, and Passaro Classes.
There are others as well noted on the pages linked above, but they’re not named classes.
