What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[Citiprime]

The president doesn't even treat it as a punishment.

The luck of the circumstances does not change the nature of the crime.

I don't understand why this is hard to see. People are acting like Kirk's heroics were all preordained and that he deserves all the accolades with little to no repercussions. The President even says that the demotion basically puts him back in to a position that he serves in the best capacity.

So, where's the punishment for any of these crimes? I'm sorry, but a question of ethics bugs me when Kirk assaulted officers. He violated the rights of others, usurped due process and created a conspiracy to upend lawful chain of command.

Again, the circumstances that ended up happening demonstrated Kirk's value but doesn't change his actions and his actions should have some measure of consequence and punishment. Not excessive punishment but a punishment nonetheless.

You're accusing me of being black and white and yet there's zero recognition that the punishment was a slap on the wrist. It was the same a kid taking a joyride and his billionaire dad bailing him out to me. It feels wrong.

Brooklyn 99 handled this way better.

I've always thought there's an interesting interpretation to be made that Kirk may have been popular with his crew and the public (given the way he's treated in Generations), but he may not have been that popular with the brass at Starfleet or with at least some of the higher ups in the Federation.

• Another way of interpreting Kirk's position in The Motion Picture is that he's been given a desk job by someone that wanted him out of the field, and is desperately trying to escape it.
• He's an admiral, but in Search for Spock he doesn't even have the political power to save the Enterprise from decommissioning, get a ship to take to Genesis, or to get the Commander of Starfleet to take his concerns about Spock seriously.
• By The Undiscovered Country, he's "volunteered" for a mission that they don't even take his input about, and the conspiracy within Starfleet has so little respect for him that they use him as a patsy to take the fall and bring about their plan for war.

If you look at things that way, Kirk is basically an officer that survives on his heroics and record. They can't fire him or actively punish him because the public wouldn't stand for it.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Alright, I give up.

TVH should have ended with Kirk on his way to prison along with his crew.

Maybe it could have ended with him them all having the shit beaten out of them by hardened cons?

Madeline did it.

 

[cooleddie74]

I blame the Michelob Kirk drank in the movie. I mean, come on, Michelob with pizza? That's got to be a capital offense even in the late 23rd century.

 

[BillJ]

How do they actually punish Kirk, when the sum total of Starfleet incompetence is standing next to him, alive?

 

[BillJ]

I blame the Michelob Kirk drank in the movie. I mean, come on, Michelob with pizza? That's got to be a capital offense even in the late 23rd century.

Surely that is worth some borite mining?

 

[CorporalClegg]

It's a movie that sees the heroes go 300 years back in time by going really fast around the sun.

*Over a rather long time frame, given their apparent relative speed compared to light, I might add.

 

[Tallguy]

Kirk is a shoot from the hip cowboy who does whatever he wants and gets away with it every time and sleeps with everything that moves. Especially the green women.

None of these facts are in dispute, Mr. President.

 

[cooleddie74]

Surely that is worth some borite mining?

[*Harrumphs in Leonard H. McCoy*]

 

[Shawnster]

Only to a certain degree..A judge may be benevolent but there still should be fucking consequences for a person's action.

Kirk gets a reward

I don't understand why this is hard to see

I do see where you are coming from. The blowback you are receiving, in my opinion, is because you present your argument as that Kirk should have been severely punished with at least years in prison. This comes across as if literally saving the lives of everyone on Earth (likely billions of people), nor Kirk's prior good acts and heroic deeds, are enough to balance the scales of justice and mitigate Kirk's crimes.

A more balanced result, when looking at the argument you present, might be that our heroes, Kirk and everyone else except Spock, should have been honorably discharged. "On the one hand you committed these crimes, on the other hand you saved billions of people. Convicting you to prison would not, in the grand scheme of things, serve the needs of justice,, would be a bad decision politically, and would give Starfleet and the Federation a PR black eye that would be difficult to overcome for a long time. Our only choice is to discharge you from service. We won't send you to prison, but you cannot stay in Starfleet. "

That would be fair. No reward for the crimes, but no punishment so severe that it does more harm than good.

 

[BillJ]

Kirk is a shoot from the hip cowboy who does whatever he wants and gets away with it every time and sleeps with everything that moves. Especially the green women.

None of these facts are in dispute, Mr. President.

That's why he is such a big figure in American mythology.

 

[BillJ]

A more balanced result, when looking at the argument you present, might be that our heroes, Kirk and everyone else except Spock, should have been honorably discharged. "On the one hand you committed these crimes, on the other hand you saved billions of people. Convicting you to prison would not, in the grand scheme of things, serve the needs of justice,, would be a bad decision politically, and would give Starfleet and the Federation a PR black eye that would be difficult to overcome for a long time. Our only choice is to discharge you from service. We won't send you to prison, but you cannot stay in Starfleet. "

I think kicking them out would be a pretty big PR black eye. The public would be wondering when law and order was more important than the survival of Earth?

 

[fireproof78]

I do see where you are coming from. The blowback you are receiving, in my opinion, is because you present your argument as that Kirk should have been severely punished with at least years in prison. This comes across as if literally saving the lives of everyone on Earth (likely billions of people), nor Kirk's prior good acts and heroic deeds, are enough to balance the scales of justice and mitigate Kirk's crimes.

I never argued for any punishment at all.

I simply said there should be a punishment. That's it. That's all.

Heroics are great and if the judge decides to be benevolent, fine. Doesn't change my view that consequences should proceed from actions.

That's it. Period.

Convicting you to prison would not, in the grand scheme of things, serve the needs of justice,, would be a bad decision politically, and would give Starfleet and the Federation a PR black eye that would be difficult to overcome for a long time. Our only choice is to discharge you from service. We won't send you to prison, but you cannot stay in Starfleet. "

That would be fair. No reward for the crimes, but no punishment so severe that it does more harm than good.

A much fairer point and closer in line with the spirit I was trying to argue. Thank you for taking it this way.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

The purpose of the ending of TVH was to close a loose trilogy of movies and put the crew of the Enterprise back in their respective ‘places’ so that the next movie could begin with a clean slate.

It’s supposed to be joyous I think.

 

[BillJ]

I simply said there should be a punishment. That's it. That's all.

There was punishment, though. Just because you disagree with it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Reduction in rank is a pretty big deal in military circles.

Reduction in rank - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Tallguy]

It should have been the ending of A Few Good Men.

 

[CorporalClegg]

"He thwarted an enemy plot to steal their most classified research project. Returned a prominent flag officer assumed KIA. Saved the planet from an alien attack, reviving an extinct spieces of intelligent life in the process. But, oh no! Swagger Stick is still butthurt."

 

[fireproof78]

There was punishment, though. Just because you disagree with it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Reduction in rank is a pretty big deal in military circles.

Starfleet isn't a military though, as the argument goes. (I regret this as I wrote it).

And, again, it was a wink and a nod punishment. You violate the rights of others and get your old job back? I will always struggle with that. Yes, it's a feel good movie. Yes, I'm overthinking it. Yes, it's irrational. No, I'm not arguing for hard labor or flogging or hanging from a yardarm (Does the Navy still do that?)

I'm allowed to disagree with it. And I do. Because the charges were insufficient for the actions taken, regardless of the mitigating circumstances. Kirk didn't make his choices with that foreknowledge. He did it because he felt duty bound to do it, and violated regulations in the process. Again, you can acknowledge both of these things, but one taking away from the other is not justice.

 

[Tallguy]

Swagger Stick is still butthurt.

It's a holographic golf club, I am reliably told.
(RIP James B. Sikking)

 

[BillJ]

Starfleet isn't a military though. (I regret this as I wrote it).

And, again, it was a wink and a nod punishment. You violate the rights of others and get your old job back?

Honestly, Kirk punched one Starfleet guy in the whole affair. And, he stole, yes stole, a decommissioned starship. They followed what seemed to be standard military protocol and reduced him in rank to the last rank he served competently at.

 

[fireproof78]

Honestly, Kirk punched one Starfleet guy in the whole affair. And, he stole, yes stole, a decommissioned starship. They followed what seemed to be standard military protocol and reduced him in rank to the last rank he served competently at.

Unlawful imprisonment, initiating a brig break, and sabotage are protocol? Glad there is a protocol for that. Thanks Starfleet!

"Did you file your correct paperwork to steal the Enterprise? Must be filed in triplicate!"

My head hurts at this point. He punches one guy in the commission of a crime. Anyone else that would merit punishment but not Kirk.