I meant that rhetorically, not literally, but yeah...
What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?
- Thread starter Amasov
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The president doesn't even treat it as a punishment.
The luck of the circumstances does not change the nature of the crime.
I don't understand why this is hard to see. People are acting like Kirk's heroics were all preordained and that he deserves all the accolades with little to no repercussions. The President even says that the demotion basically puts him back in to a position that he serves in the best capacity.
So, where's the punishment for any of these crimes? I'm sorry, but a question of ethics bugs me when Kirk assaulted officers. He violated the rights of others, usurped due process and created a conspiracy to upend lawful chain of command.
Again, the circumstances that ended up happening demonstrated Kirk's value but doesn't change his actions and his actions should have some measure of consequence and punishment. Not excessive punishment but a punishment nonetheless.
You're accusing me of being black and white and yet there's zero recognition that the punishment was a slap on the wrist. It was the same a kid taking a joyride and his billionaire dad bailing him out to me. It feels wrong.
Brooklyn 99 handled this way better.
Of course they do. President Bad Guy From North By Northwest practically winks at him.
They didn't give him a garbage scow or even a cozy little science ship. They gave him the freaking Enterprise back.
Yes it was a slap on the wrist, to the amusement of 99.99999999999999999% of the audience.
It’s a mid-eighties action adventure romp. You’re over thinking and applying ethical values and arguments to something that lacks the substance and depth required to do so.
It takes all kinds of weird mental gymnastics to watch Kirk knock out a nameless redshirt and then cry ‘assault’.
It’s just a fun movie.
I could swear Picard says something similar in "Redemption II".
It that is all you got out of it, then it probably says more about you than what was presented on screen. Kirk wasn't some kid who went on a joyride. He was someone who had given his entire life to the Federation and Starfleet. He didn't take the Enterprise for shit-and-giggles, he took it to recover the body of a friend who had also given his entire life to the Federation and Starfleet, and made the ultimate sacrifice to save a Starfleet ship and crew.
At the end of the day, they owed him far more than he owed them. Starfleet got him anyway, by giving him a broken ship.
Alright, I give up.
TVH should have ended with Kirk on his way to prison along with his crew.
Maybe it could have closed with them all having the shit beaten out of them by hardened cons?
TVH should have ended with Kirk on his way to prison along with his crew.
Maybe it could have closed with them all having the shit beaten out of them by hardened cons?
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They gave him a broken ship with the Enterprise name slapped on it. Starfleet knew how to get back at Kirk for exposing the ineptitude.
That is what I do.
A lot.
It really doesn't. It applies real world expectations of conduct to fictional characters, which you have already stated I take too far.
And I have already acknowledge the irrationality of this position. Doesn't change the "gut feeling" I have over it. As @Tallguy notes, the "punishment" was a wink and a reward. It grinds my gears, cuts against the grain, irks me, etc.
Does it ruin my enjoyment of the movie? No. Still a fun movie. Does that one little moment stand out to me? Yeah, it does. That's how I analyze works. I find those little moments and go through them again and again.
Mileage will vary.
While I appreciate hyperbole, that's not the argument I'm making.
Only for Kirk's choices to have a consequence beyond the wink and the slap on the wrist.
As I've stated, again and again and again, yes it does say more about me.
I've stated my reasons and apparently that's not good enough.
Yes, but that's not the arguments being made. The arguments being made here are "Kirk saved the Earth therefore he should not be punished."
Which wasn't the motivation for his original choices. It's disingenuous at best, and seems set frame this as badly as possible. You all got what you wanted to I guess jokes on me.
Probably a bad time to mention I high-kicked a bully once in tenth grade.
No, his original motivation was to recover the body of a friend, to respect the wishes of his family and return his body to Vulcan. And, hopefully help another friend who was struggling with the death. All he got from Starfleet was non-sense about Vulcan mysticism.
Not a kid joyriding.
Poor analogy on my part.
He did the wrong thing for the right reasons. He is to both be commended and punished.
That's all I see it.
And it is damn frustrating to hear people say Star Trek is about rules, and laws and ethics and conduct, and set a hire standard and then throw them out with no repercussions because of personal biases. That's not justice to me.
Ending the movie by giving the crew six months of hard labor, mining borite would've given the movie the emotional kick it needed!
I'm out too.
If people will not actually read my opinion without adding in the supposed punishment they imagine I mean then this conversation is going nowhere.
Ok, well, at least I got a good Brooklyn 99 clip for my trouble. Thanks, Richard!
I think something that is missing, is the Sarek angle. "I've been to your government, I've seen your reports." They gave the Vulcan ambassador the brush off, or else he never comes to Kirk.
And, who would Kirk be if he brushed off a professional or private request of the Vulcan ambassador? He was willing to give his life and career to help his friend, in front of T'Pau.
Kirk is a creature of honor and duty.
And, who would Kirk be if he brushed off a professional or private request of the Vulcan ambassador? He was willing to give his life and career to help his friend, in front of T'Pau.
Kirk is a creature of honor and duty.
If you need for Kirk to be punished, remember his actions followed him for the rest of his career and are used against him in Star Trek VI.
And his son's murder during that very same mission haunts him until the day he dies.
Which he could very easily hold against the Federation and Starfleet for being so underprepared to handle Genesis.
The Federation giving him a demotion feels like a fair trade for all he has given them.
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