And an idiot, which was why I was so happy when Kirk kicked that waste of a villain in the face!
was Kruge the good guy?
- Thread starter Shat Happens
- Start date
Let's just take a moment to appreciate that Kirk and Company used Christopher Lloyd's ship to travel 'Back to the Future'.
And Gillian uses it like a taxi.
Or Valkris could theoretically have used it to bolster her OWN power base.
Based on what? If she wanted to bolster her own power, maybe she shouldn't have transmitted ALL of the Genesis Data while on the ship that Kruge was likely blow up anyway.
I saw this post in or on the Facebook, forgot by whom, but/and couldn't get it out of my mind:
Maybe Klaa in STV, lol.
The perception of some of the Klingons who are aware of the device believed it to be a powerful weapon. We viewers know, from the previous flick, that its real design is to terraform planets far faster than ever before. Spock dispassionately handwaves McCoy's concerns, and it's McCoy's concerns that allude to the same end belief - that this could be used as a weapon. Heck, we use knives to cut up tasty vegetables, that can be used as a weapon too. Only Genesis is bigger.
Their belief is not invalid. But it is wrong. Where is it said, prior to this point, that it was going to be used AS a weapon? Khan stealing it and threatening it as one doesn't count, what with him being dead and all.
True. But that wasn't Genesis's intended purpose, or detonated by the people intending on using it in the intended way. Which clearly led to a bigger misunderstanding.
But the mindset of Kruge makes for a great theme to explore despite it all.
But that doesn't make Kruge's belief correct. Kruge is running on paranoia and during a time of possible treaty making. It's like an episode of Three's Company, except the misunderstanding isn't as funny. Fun note: John Larroquette also played a bit role in an episode of Three's Company.
Would the Klingons have believed them?
What happened to Carol's original tape, how come this goofy new one with Kirk saying most of the same lines but without all of the context.
And Kirk copping it:
If only Kruge nicked the original recording instead of Kirk's rehash of it?? For all we know, Vreenak's grampa cobbled it together. Signed, someone old enough to be a gramps.
Also, about a covering up:
Kruge's the hero, I suppose... or not...
Very possible.
That's true. But he also believed that Kirk genuinely wanting to save him despite all the bleep he had committed in blowing up starships and murdering his kid was also phony, based just as much out of paranoia... Kirk was always the bigger character, as he knew the importance of peace. Sadly, despite the paranoia of Kruge, it had a knock-on effect as TUC would reveal.
Possibly. It'd still be more sensical to find out more about it
Lastly, spoiler alert:
Even the teaser piddles it out, the ship gets destroyed. Also, the logo is 80s fad chrome in high gear...
Maybe Klaa in STV, lol.
The perception of some of the Klingons who are aware of the device believed it to be a powerful weapon. We viewers know, from the previous flick, that its real design is to terraform planets far faster than ever before. Spock dispassionately handwaves McCoy's concerns, and it's McCoy's concerns that allude to the same end belief - that this could be used as a weapon. Heck, we use knives to cut up tasty vegetables, that can be used as a weapon too. Only Genesis is bigger.
Their belief is not invalid. But it is wrong. Where is it said, prior to this point, that it was going to be used AS a weapon? Khan stealing it and threatening it as one doesn't count, what with him being dead and all.
True. But that wasn't Genesis's intended purpose, or detonated by the people intending on using it in the intended way. Which clearly led to a bigger misunderstanding.
But the mindset of Kruge makes for a great theme to explore despite it all.
But that doesn't make Kruge's belief correct. Kruge is running on paranoia and during a time of possible treaty making. It's like an episode of Three's Company, except the misunderstanding isn't as funny. Fun note: John Larroquette also played a bit role in an episode of Three's Company.
Would the Klingons have believed them?
What happened to Carol's original tape, how come this goofy new one with Kirk saying most of the same lines but without all of the context.
And Kirk copping it:
If only Kruge nicked the original recording instead of Kirk's rehash of it?? For all we know, Vreenak's grampa cobbled it together. Signed, someone old enough to be a gramps.
Also, about a covering up:
Kruge's the hero, I suppose... or not...
Very possible.
That's true. But he also believed that Kirk genuinely wanting to save him despite all the bleep he had committed in blowing up starships and murdering his kid was also phony, based just as much out of paranoia... Kirk was always the bigger character, as he knew the importance of peace. Sadly, despite the paranoia of Kruge, it had a knock-on effect as TUC would reveal.
Possibly. It'd still be more sensical to find out more about it
Lastly, spoiler alert:
Even the teaser piddles it out, the ship gets destroyed. Also, the logo is 80s fad chrome in high gear...
Eh. He didn't even recognize a self-destruct countdown when it was staring him in the face.
For all they knew, by the speaker counting down, it was either about to dispense a cup of piping hot coffee, and/or play the number one song of the week - as told by Kasey Kasem, of course. Or would have if those over-the-top tie-ins were done back in the day. Then again, they copped the same self-destruct sequence as introduced in "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield", but that was in season 3 - the icky evil one as deemed the norm by fans of the day...
They beam aboard a ship that seems to be entirely empty, and then when they get to the bridge they find nothing significant except for a countdown...assuming they recognized it as a countdown, I think there's only so many reasonable conclusions that can be drawn, and most of them are bad for the Klingons.
Oh how I miss the film accurate, burned in subtitles
I think it's fair to assume that Valkris, Kruge, and Maltz are the only Klingons in the film that speak English, and that's only to Federation/Starfleet personnel. Torg may be unfamiliar with English enough to not recognize a countdown.
We know Torg spoke English, because he understood Kirk's report on Genesis. He was the first one to offer an opinion on it when Kruge asked for reactions. Also, he, Kruge, and Maltz spoke in English in that scene rather than subtitled Klingonese. Marc Okrand accounted for that in The Klingon Dictionary by saying that upper-class Klingons speak English as a mark of status (because they're better educated than the lower classes) and to carry on private conversations without their subordinates understanding.
Even aside from that, I think that if you see unfamiliar symbols changing in a regular cadence, it's pretty easy to deduce that it's a countdown. I've seen shows and movies where characters have seen alien numbers changing in that way and realized they were counting down.
I'm entitled to read into it anything I want at this late date, so:
Torg always spoke English haltingly. He may have learned English in a perfunctory way, and been unfamiliar with nuance. For all of his bravado, he was not as bright as he seemed.
I've seen episodes of Star Trek where they've realized it was a countdown. And I've seen Predator. I've also seen in person symbols changing in a regular cadence that were decorative. I think it's safer to assume Torg's ignorance before assuming an error on the part of the filmmakers.
I wanred to mention briefly that my interpretation of killing his lover wasn't petty, but a desperate move to preserve their mission.
If he could've have beamed her aboard, i think he would have. But i think in that process , they could have raised the shields (killing her anyway), and gotten away with the Genesis data (i assume a copy was on the ship). Also, if she saw the data (i assume her to possibly have confirmed it or accidentally seeing it), it means the crew of the merchant ship did also.... they could have alerted the Federation or others, which could blow Kruge's mission.
It wasn't so much her, but that people knew her and her connection. And they wouldn't suspect that that the ship was about to blow up if she was staying with the ship. SO the Klingons had the element of surprise.
A hard call by Kruge, but he did so for the "greater good"
If he could've have beamed her aboard, i think he would have. But i think in that process , they could have raised the shields (killing her anyway), and gotten away with the Genesis data (i assume a copy was on the ship). Also, if she saw the data (i assume her to possibly have confirmed it or accidentally seeing it), it means the crew of the merchant ship did also.... they could have alerted the Federation or others, which could blow Kruge's mission.
It wasn't so much her, but that people knew her and her connection. And they wouldn't suspect that that the ship was about to blow up if she was staying with the ship. SO the Klingons had the element of surprise.
A hard call by Kruge, but he did so for the "greater good"
Where did you get that impression? I just popped in my DVD and checked all of Torg's scenes, and there's nothing "halting" about his English. If anything, Maltz is the slowest-talking of the three named Klingons. The only line of Torg's with a staccato delivery is "We are cloaked. Enemy closing on impulse power. Range, five thousand kellicams." But I take that as the clipped tone of a formal report, since the rest of Torg's lines are delivered quite normally.
Who said anything about an error? My only point was that I don't agree with the premise that someone would be unable to recognize a countdown in an unfamiliar language. If Torg didn't recognize it as a countdown, then yes, that's clearly a critical failure on his roll for perception. But his language skills have nothing to do with it.
Come to think of it, it could be that Klingons are unfamiliar with the concept of a self-destruct countdown because their custom is for the crew to die with the ship rather than evacuating, so they have no need to postpone the detonation. Kruge may have recognized it for what it was because he was more experienced with humans.
Maybe? Though we know by the time of DS9 that Klingon ships do carry escape pods, though I suppose we could say those would be used in some circumstances but not others.
If I can find my copy of the novelization I'll have to re-read this part. My (decades-old) recollection is that Torg recognizes the countdown but is a bit slow to realize what it portends.
Well, I think Kruge just wanted the weapon for his own use and to take over the Klingon Empire a la the Duras Sisters wanting to make a trilithium super weapon to take over the Klingon Empire. I don't believe for a second Kruge was a peaceful man. Not at all.
Or maybe just to increase his status within the empire and the military by bringing them a superior weapon.
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