Star Trek Picard Season 3 End Credits - Legacy Ships at Earth Spacedock?

[evilchumlee]

It really isn't.

It is though, because it's not as easily dismissed as someone misspeaking. The information comes from multiple sources.

I mean, people misspeak, or speak more casually, all the time. If the word changed, then I would appreciate being filled in rather than just assuming thus.

Sure, but it's also not really necessary. I feel that way about major changes, like say, Discovery Klingons. If they're going to be drastically different, I think some sort of explanation is in order. It's why I actually appreciate something like TMP... the Enterprise looks drastically different than in TOS? They explained why.

When it comes to down to literal semantics? I'm comfortable with context clues and comprehension. They called Titan-A a refit. While it may not have appeared to be a refit from my understanding of the word refit, I can use my general language comprehension skills to understand the context of the word they are using.

People in the UK call crispy fried potatoes "crisps". I call them "chips". This doesn't cause some sort of unintelligible breakdown of communication... even if I had no actual foreknowledge that people in the UK called them crisps, if I heard people speaking, eating the food, and saying the word "crisps"... I would reasonably assume "Oh, they call those crisps, even though I understand them to be chips."

Now granted at the end of the day, was it kind of stupid to call either of these ships a refit? Absolutely. Honestly though I think this was more of a result of some clashing between someone like Matalas and Paramount. While I haven't found any quotes confirming it, Matalas very much seems like the type who have wanted to just use the Luna-Class and have it just be the Titan. But someone at Paramount wanted a newly designed ship, probably well into the process of the script having already been written to include the Titan. So then we end up with a clunky "It's the Titan, but not."

 

[fireproof78]

the Enterprise looks drastically different than in TOS? They explained why.

Yes, though not satisfactorily.

Same here

 

[The Wormhole]

Matalas very much seems like the type who have wanted to just use the Luna-Class and have it just be the Titan. But someone at Paramount wanted a newly designed ship, probably well into the process of the script having already been written to include the Titan. So then we end up with a clunky "It's the Titan, but not."

This was covered earlier in the thread, Matalas wanted the Shangri-La class to be featured in S3, so he modernized the look a bit and called it a Neo-Constitution class. His intent was that this was the Titan that Riker took command of at the end of Nemesis. Then late in the game he found out Lower Decks already featured the Titan and had it be the Luna class from the novels, so he tried to salvage the situation by calling it a refit, which as we saw in S2 he apparently thinks is what you call a ship named after a previous one.

 

[Dukhat]

Again I’ll bring up my car analogy. If I told you that my new car is actually a refit of my old car because I added some stuff from the old car to the new car, would you just slavishly take my word for it? Or would you think I was being silly?

 

[Daedalus]

Again I’ll bring up my car analogy. If I told you that my new car is actually a refit of my old car because I added some stuff from the old car to the new car, would you just slavishly take my word for it? Or would you think I was being silly?

Has the term "Refit" ever pertained to a car?

Best comparison I can find that compares seems to be "cut & shut". In that event you'd be half right, or a third right. It depends on how much of the old car you used.

Picard should've said "cut 'n' shut", and really brought that totally not french accent out.

 

[Dukhat]

Has the term "Refit" ever pertained to a car?

Best comparison I can find that compares seems to be "cut & shut". In that event you'd be half right, or a third right. It depends on how much of the old car you used.

Picard should've said "cut 'n' shut", and really brought that totally not french accent out.

I don’t recognize the term ‘cut ‘n’ shut,’ but honestly the term is irrelevant. Even if I put my old car’s engine in the new car, nobody would ever think my new car is my old car.

 

[fireproof78]

But what if you put a bunch of jazz in there?

 

[DonIago]

There are people who do a fair amount of custom work on their cars (the closest I ever came personally was replacing the stock radio). While I wouldn't quite call that a "refit", it's certainly more in the spirit of a refit than putting old car stuff in a new car body.

 

[The Wormhole]

Or look at it this way, if Bob got an organ transplant from Gary, does that mean Bob is now a clone of Gary? Of course not, though Lord Terry would probably think so.

 

[Dukhat]

There are people who do a fair amount of custom work on their cars (the closest I ever came personally was replacing the stock radio). While I wouldn't quite call that a "refit", it's certainly more in the spirit of a refit than putting old car stuff in a new car body.

Sure, I can buy that someone could consider that scenario a refit. But that was not remotely the same situation with the Titan-A. That was much more of the ‘putting old car stuff in a new car body’ scenario.

It comes down to this: One can either slavishly accept the dialogue, despite the fact that it makes no sense, just because it’s ‘canon,’ or one can accept that people simply misspeak. Terry wanted the ship to be Riker’s Titan, so he made some convoluted and awkward dialogue to make that happen. People can choose to either take it literally or come up with a more rational explanation as to why the Titan-A is not in fact a ‘refit’ despite it having old engines and jazz music.

 

[evilchumlee]

It comes down to this: One can either slavishly accept the dialogue, despite the fact that it makes no sense, just because it’s ‘canon,’ or one can accept that people simply misspeak.

But aren't you just doing somewhat of the opposite, slavishly accepting that a definition a word can not change slightly in several centuries?

Why is any worse to just accept that the word means something slightly different than it does in 2024? It's really the much easier solution over several people misspeaking.

 

[Dukhat]

But aren't you just doing somewhat of the opposite, slavishly accepting that a definition a word can not change slightly in several centuries?

No, I’m pointing out the nonsensical usage of the term as used to describe the Titan-A.

Why is any worse to just accept that the word means something slightly different than it does in 2024? It's really the much easier solution over several people misspeaking.

Because it has nothing to do with the word meaning something different. It has to do with the inconsistency in how it was used.

 

[Tuskin38]

But aren't you just doing somewhat of the opposite, slavishly accepting that a definition a word can not change slightly in several centuries?

Why is any worse to just accept that the word means something slightly different than it does in 2024? It's really the much easier solution over several people misspeaking.

Why do you care so much?

Not even I can defend the improper use of the word, and that's saying something.

 

[Daedalus]

I think it's worth accepting that the Titan is not quite a new ship, nor is it the pure definition of a refitted old ship.

It's this weird middle ground where the terminology is fluid and undefined. Nobody could be arsed to come up with a new name for it, and why would they? It's not really important to the plot, except for the awkward dinner scene.

Stargazer was probably an actual refit prior to the VFX department being told to add it to the fleet museum in S3. I'd actually put money on that being the case.

 

[evilchumlee]

Why do you care so much?

Not even I can defend the improper use of the word, and that's saying something.

I'll answer the question with a question... why do others care so much about it being called a refit?

To be quite frank, it seems like there is much more brainpower going into the claim that the Titan-A is not a refit than the argument that it is.

The argument that Titan-A is a refit: The show said it is, so it is. Word must mean something different.

The argument that it's not? That does into background production information to try to figure out why the word "refit" may have been used when at first glance it would not appear that the Titan-A is a refit.

People are talking about going with the easy answer, but... not... going with the easy answer.

We're inconsistent on what matters. I get alot of grief for my issues with the visual style of DSC and SNW, pointing out that it doesn't look right or make sense with TOS. I'm generally told "it's an update, it's always looked like that", despite being able to provide evidence that things did not, in fact, always look like that.

Then when there's some as minor as semantics... well now we really have to take an in-depth look into this word that seemingly doesn't make sense and disregard what the lore established...

 

[fireproof78]

Show the word applied the way it was makes it easier to accept.

Otherwise, I'm not surprised by people going, "this doesn't fit past use in lore or in real world."

 

[evilchumlee]

Show the word applied the way it was makes it easier to accept.

Otherwise, I'm not surprised by people going, "this doesn't fit past use in lore or in real world."

Sure that's fair.

I'm happy to leave this one alone now. I'm going by what the show said, it's a refit. Others can choose not to. There's not much sense in continuing to go on about it.

To at least sort of move on, although keeping with a similar topic... it is somewhat mind-blowing about the general lack of communication within Paramount. You clearly did have Matalas who had clearly decided to use the Titan PIC that definitely got fairly well into production, as the design in the show. You also had Lower Decks throw in the Titan, as the previously non-canon design. It's surprising to me that there was apparently zero communication between the two shows about what they were doing. Even just someone being like "Oh Terry you're gonna use Titan too? That's cool, Lower Decks is doing that!"

My criticism there is that it does seem like Matalas was being kind of stubborn. He intended the ship to be just straight up Riker's Titan, but then LDS took it, but he was still like "Well, screw you. I'm gonna do Titan, too." It really wasn't particularly plot relevant for the ship to be Titan. It only like gave Riker like, a mild reason to feign interest in the ship. Although in the end, I had barely even registered any of this until this discussion so it's not really a big deal.

 

[The Wormhole]

Why is any worse to just accept that the word means something slightly different than it does in 2024?

Because this wasn't a conscious effort to show an evolving language or how time can change terminology. This is a writer incorrectly using a word he doesn't know the meaning of, and fans are under no obligation to indulge in that kind of ignorance.

it is somewhat mind-blowing about the general lack of communication within Paramount. You clearly did have Matalas who had clearly decided to use the Titan PIC that definitely got fairly well into production, as the design in the show. You also had Lower Decks throw in the Titan, as the previously non-canon design. It's surprising to me that there was apparently zero communication between the two shows about what they were doing. Even just someone being like "Oh Terry you're gonna use Titan too? That's cool, Lower Decks is doing that!"

There was at first no coordination between the shows at all, a situation Paramount decided to address after both the first seasons of Picard and Lower Decks essentially ended the same way, with Riker showing up to save the day. Because of that, Paramount then decided there should be coordination between the shows. At the time the decision was made, they probably could have included the Luna class Titan, we see plenty of Luna class ships in the fleets in seasons 2 and 3 plus a Luna class model can be seen in the Titan A's briefing room. But Matalas had already made the decision to use the modified Shangri-La class before the coordination began and was very insistent on keeping it, which necessitated him to make hasty rewrites.

Stargazer was probably an actual refit prior to the VFX department being told to add it to the fleet museum in S3.

Except the new Stargazer has a completely different registry number than the old one. As in an entirely new number, not the same number with a letter added to the end. If it were a refit, it would have the same number as the previous one, or the same with a letter added to it if you're following the Matalas definition of a refit. Since it has a completely new registry number, it would seem the intent was to make it a completely new ship, since it doesn't seem to follow the definition of an actual refit or the erroneous definition Matalas thinks is a refit.

 

[Daedalus]

Except the new Stargazer has a completely different registry number than the old one. As in an entirely new number, not the same number with a letter added to the end. If it were a refit, it would have the same number as the previous one, or the same with a letter added to it if you're following the Matalas definition of a refit. Since it has a completely new registry number, it would seem the intent was to make it a completely new ship, since it doesn't seem to follow the definition of an actual refit or the erroneous definition Matalas thinks is a refit.

I was thinking more standard, but then changed in post. NCC-82893 vs NCC-2893 is awfully close as well.

 

[Dukhat]

I’m pretty sure the new Stargazer was always supposed to be new, since its registry number was a play on the old ship’s number.