Star Trek Picard Season 3 End Credits - Legacy Ships at Earth Spacedock?

[The Wormhole]

The show confirmed it as a refit of Titan. There's not really any discussion to be had on that fact.

In dialogue written by someone already proven to not know what the word means.

i'm perfectly willing to chalk up the Stargazer getting an offhand reference as a "refit" by Picard as being a 90-something year old dude misspeaking,

That doesn't really add up. That 90-something year old dude spent sixty something years serving in Starfleet and spent most of his childhood before that obsessing over Starfleet. He would know about it, its culture and terminology as though they were a part of him. This is not a subject he would misspeak about. Especially when talking about the first ship he commanded, something that would be as near to his heart as a child. And before you start about "age does things to people" we are talking about someone who is 90 in a society where people can live to be 140 and on top of that he now inhabits an android body. I think we can safely assume his mental faculties are as sharp as ever.

I don't think we always need to take a single line of dialogue as absolute dogmatic truth.

And yet, that's exactly what you're doing by being so insistent the Titan A must be a refit because of Dialogue Spoken Onscreen.

 

[Dukhat]

That's ok. I have a hard time understanding the mentality though.

"The show established x, but I don't like x, so i'm going to make it y instead."

Sure at the end of the day you do you, but at that point are you discussing the story as is, or the story you made up?

It’s all made up. It’s fiction. In WNMHGB, Kirk’s middle initial is R. According to you, that’s not up for debate because we saw it on screen and it’s a canon fact.

And yet…

 

[Daedalus]

People sometimes misspeak in the real world (sometimes even on this board (gasp!)); I see no reason why we can't assume that people might misspeak in the fictitious world of Star Trek if what they're saying seems counterfactual, and in a case like this, that seems to me to be the most straightforward approach.

We also have pretty good evidence that we've seen some things in the franchise which, even if intended to be taken 100% literally, don't really hold up if interpreted that way (at least, not without some creative thinking).

We can, of course, get into arguments about whether other characters were then misspeaking at other times in the franchise, but that's why you look at the evidence and ultimately decide for yourself what resolution works best for you.

It could also be, at least in-universe, "refit" for the want of a better word. Misspeaking to simplify a complicated situation, which seems to be the case with a lot of these recycled ships.

The new Titan having Riker's jazz collection, among other things, might also lend a touch of possessiveness to any conversation he has with people. It might even be the same with Picard if any internal components were recycled from the Stargazer for use in the new one.

 

[evilchumlee]

That doesn't really add up. That 90-something year old dude spent sixty something years serving in Starfleet and spent most of his childhood before that obsessing over Starfleet. He would know about it, its culture and terminology as though they were a part of him. This is not a subject he would misspeak about. Especially when talking about the first ship he commanded, something that would be as near to his heart as a child. And before you start about "age does things to people" we are talking about someone who is 90 in a society where people can live to be 140 and on top of that he now inhabits an android body. I think we can safely assume his mental faculties are as sharp as ever.

That was just one possible explanation, although I don't think a simple misspeaking of a word is an indication of diminished mental faculties.

And yet, that's exactly what you're doing by being so insistent the Titan A must be a refit because of Dialogue Spoken Onscreen.

I can absolutely see how you could think that. I take things on levels of likelyhood based on how often we hear it or how much we know about it.

In the case of Stargazer, "refit" is mentioned exactly once in a throwaway line of dialogue with no other data to base it from. In that case, I could be comfortable saying Picard just misspoke. It could be something else... I also clearly do not have any issue with "refit" just meaning something slightly different in a few centuries. Also acceptable. I honestly like the second explanation much more, but that seems to an unpopular stance here. Was moreso giving options.

In the case of Titan, we are told several times it is a refit, along with some supporting evidence of that being true... Riker's jazz being in the computer core, things definitely having been reused from Titan. We are also told it's a new ship both through dialogue and the fact that the new ship class is pointed out and the ship has a different registry (with a letter suffix). Given several datapoints suggesting that this ship is both considered a refit and a new ship, I find it much less likely that a confluence of events occurred to provide incorrect information to us.

Left with that, I certainly would ask "buy why is it a refit?" I think that's a reasonable question. In the case of the Titan, I don't think a reasonable answer is "It's not a refit". Had it been a similar situation to the Stargazer and one person just said "the refit Titan" and that was that... I could be inclined to say it's not a refit and that person as just wrong. It can happen.

It’s all made up. It’s fiction. In WNMHGB, Kirk’s middle initial is R. According to you, that’s not up for debate because we saw it on screen and it’s a canon fact.

And yet…

Retcons are a different beast altogether. At the time, his middle initial WAS R.

We know from later information, on several occasions, that the R is incorrect. I would say it's not really up for debate that the R had occurred. It IS there. I would reject any argument trying to say it wasn't. So then, I think the reasonable discussion isn't IF "James R Kirk" was a thing, but why James R Kirk was a thing.

My argument would never be that Kirk's middle initial is R. It's not, we have many examples of that not being true. I would absolutely argue that's not even up for debate that Gary Mitchell produced a tombstone that said "James R. Kirk". It happened. What's the easiest answer? He made a mistake. Psychotic guy with a newfound surge of godlike powers... sure, I can accept that he messed up on Kirk's middle name.

But again though, I would like to walk back the uh, I don't know, severity of my claim? You absolutely CAN debate if the Titan is a refit or not. Nobody is stopping you. In my opinion, that is not a debate, it was already clearly decided on the show itself. You are under absolutely no obligation to agree with me. And that's ok! Encourage, even!

 

[fireproof78]

It could also be, at least in-universe, "refit" for the want of a better word. Misspeaking to simplify a complicated situation, which seems to be the case with a lot of these recycled ships.

The new Titan having Riker's jazz collection, among other things, might also lend a touch of possessiveness to any conversation he has with people. It might even be the same with Picard if any internal components were recycled from the Stargazer for use in the new one.

It's probably just political, just like why the Enterprise was retired after only 20 years of service.

 

[The Wormhole]

I don't think a simple misspeaking of a word is an indication of diminished mental faculties.

Then why bring up the fact that he's in his 90s? How is that all relevant to him misspeaking if you aren't trying to suggest his age is related to diminished mental faculties?

In the case of Titan, we are told several times it is a refit, along with some supporting evidence of that being true... Riker's jazz being in the computer core, things definitely having been reused from Titan. We are also told it's a new ship both through dialogue and the fact that the new ship class is pointed out and the ship has a different registry (with a letter suffix). Given several datapoints suggesting that this ship is both considered a refit and a new ship, I find it much less likely that a confluence of events occurred to provide incorrect information to us.

Thing is, once we bring in behind the scenes information, we get even more information that Matalas just provided downright wrong information about the Titan's backstory. Most infamously, when Todd Stashwick asked him for information about the ship's background and among the answers Matalas provided him was the fact the year the Titan was launched was 2402, which led Stashwick to get this t-shirt made for himself. And then in the end, the season is revealed to take place in 2401. So somehow the "brand new ship" which Shaw has commanded "for five years" but has "twenty year old engines" (the stuff in quotations are actual quotes from the show) is according to Lord Terry Himself, launched a year after the season takes place in. Lord Terry has proven he can't provide accurate information about this ship at all, both onscreen and behind the scenes. I see no obligation to accept the ship is a refit just because that's what he wrote in the script.

Besides, that picture earlier in the thread showing the two Titans in spacedock together represents Lord Terry's intent, as indeed it is based off a description he gave. Since this clearly demonstrates the two Titans are indeed separate ships, there is no possible way the A can be considered a refit of the Luna class ship. The simplest explanation really is the word refit is being used incorrectly.

As for Riker's jazz collection being in the Titan A's computer core, maybe Riker also commanded the A at some point? Back in S1, dialogue did state he commanded multiple ships.

 

[Gepard]

the year year the Titan was launched was 2402,

Just further evidence that the season was intended to occure later than 2401, and was changed some time during production.

 

[evilchumlee]

Then why bring up the fact that he's in his 90s? How is that all relevant to him misspeaking if you aren't trying to suggest his age is related to diminished mental faculties?

I was referring to his age for the fact of why nobody bothered to correct him. Others may have thought that since he was old, he was of diminished faculties. We know he's not as outside observers.

Besides, that picture earlier in the thread showing the two Titans in spacedock together represents Lord Terry's intent, as indeed it is based off a description he gave. Since this clearly demonstrates the two Titans are indeed separate ships, there is no possible way the A can be considered a refit of the Luna class ship. The simplest explanation really is the word refit is being used incorrectly.

So two things here.

Out-of-universe... yeah. Matalas used the word refit incorrectly.

In-universe... it is made very clear the ship is a refit. And also a new ship.

The out-of-universe reasons are irrelevant. The Titan-A is considered, in-universe, to be both a refit and a new ship. That is established fact. You can ignore that fact if you wish, but it doesn't change it from being fact.

As for Riker's jazz collection being in the Titan A's computer core, maybe Riker also commanded the A at some point? Back in S1, dialogue did state he commanded multiple ships.

I'll rate this one as "plausible" at least to an extent... Riker may have commanded the refit/new ship Titan-A. I don't recall the specific dialogue so this statement could potentially be true... also is also largely irrelevant. Riker's jazz is in the computer core because the computer core was from Titan as part of the factual refit.

 

[Dukhat]

Matalas wanted to have his cake and eat it too. He wanted the season 3 ship to be the exact same vessel Riker was given at the end of Nemesis. Up until that time, the Luna class design was non-canon, so he was under no obligation to use it. But then LDS showed the Titan as the Luna class, so Matalas had to come up with some convoluted mess of an explanation as to why the ship is the same ship as in Nemesis but looks completely different from the formerly non-canon Pocket Books design, and is also a new ship.

And what exactly are the ‘facts?’ All we know is that the Titan-A has ‘twenty year old engines’ and that Riker’s jazz music was on the ship’s computer. Is that considered a ‘refit?’ The Enterprise-D was given the star drive section of the Syracuse, and it wasn’t considered to be a refit of either vessel.

 

[Tuskin38]

[Continuity] means little to the people currently in charge of Star Trek

That's not true at all. they've smudged some things, but they've also been keeping continuity with a lot of other things.

I mean Lower Decks and Prodigy are literal continuity porn.

 

[Dukhat]

Then let me change my statement to “they play fast and loose with continuity.”

And as far as LDS is concerned, there’s a difference between continuity and taking a bath in memberberries.

 

[The Wormhole]

The Titan-A is considered, in-universe, to be both a refit and a new ship.

But both can not be true. A ship can only be one or the other, not both. If a human character were to say "I am a Jem'Hadar" you wouldn't try to argue they are canonically both human and Jem'Hadar. Or would you?

 

[fireproof78]

But both can not be true. A ship can only be one or the other, not both. If a human character were to say "I am a Jem'Hadar" you wouldn't try to argue they are canonically both human and Jem'Hadar. Or would you?

"Suddenly Human" has entered the chat.

 

[evilchumlee]

But both can not be true. A ship can only be one or the other, not both.

And yet, I have provided examples of exactly how it CAN be true... and it's established by the lore that it is the case.

If a human character were to say "I am a Jem'Hadar" you wouldn't try to argue they are canonically both human and Jem'Hadar. Or would you?

I feel like this is somewhat bad faith debating, or at the very least grossly oversimplifying the topic.

If a human character just said "I am a Jem'Hadar" and that's that. No. I would not try to argue that it's actually true, because there's no actual reason to believe it is true. With one single data point, that can easily be dismissed as that person just not being accurate. That IS absolutely possible, as i've already mentioned with the Stargazer. I'm totally ok with Picard just being wrong. The Titan issue is more complex.

Now if the character says "I'm a Jem' Hadar", and other characters also say "that guy is a Jem 'Hadar", and the Jem 'Hadar say "He's a Jem 'Hadar" then... yes. The confluence of the evidence is that the human character is a Jem' Hadar. That becomes a fact. It then just becomes an issue of how and why.

I don't like the idea of just dismissing parts of the universe because you don't like them, and don't care to find a solution. There absolutely are ways to explain away a good bit of issues, but not if you remain rigid to pure dictionary definitions of everything or take everything 100% literally. I don't like Discovery like, as a whole. It doesn't make any sense in the larger world of Star Trek. At the same point, i'm not just going to say "DSC doesn't exist. Doesn't make sense." and that's that. I'll find a way to make it work.

 

[DonIago]

"The character(s) misspoke," is a reasonable enough solution to me. YMMV.

 

[evilchumlee]

"The character(s) misspoke," is a reasonable enough solution to me. YMMV.

Totally, but in context.

One character misspeaking? 100% plausible.

Several characters misspeaking about the same thing? That makes much less sense than the word perhaps have a slightly different meaning in a few hundred years, or even just applied in a slightly different way than we might apply the word.

To steal a line from Discovery, "Universal law is for lackeys, but context is for kings."

 

[fireproof78]

Characters can misspeak, and Star Trek uses incorrect terminology a lot.

To me, it's an error, but one with that's manageable within human understanding of the term.

 

[DonIago]

Totally, but in context.

One character misspeaking? 100% plausible.

Several characters misspeaking about the same thing? That makes much less sense than the word perhaps have a slightly different meaning in a few hundred years, or even just applied in a slightly different way than we might apply the word.

To steal a line from Discovery, "Universal law is for lackeys, but context is for kings."

Like I said, it's reasonable enough to me. Whether it's reasonable enough for other people is a Them Problem.

 

[Tuskin38]

The Titan issue is more complex.

It really isn't.

 

[fireproof78]

Totally, but in context.

One character misspeaking? 100% plausible.

Several characters misspeaking about the same thing? That makes much less sense than the word perhaps have a slightly different meaning in a few hundred years, or even just applied in a slightly different way than we might apply the word.

To steal a line from Discovery, "Universal law is for lackeys, but context is for kings."

I mean, people misspeak, or speak more casually, all the time. If the word changed, then I would appreciate being filled in rather than just assuming thus.