Ok. What is the chance of a Picard spinoff?

[Lord Garth]

I'm in Florida.

I know all about the humidity!


#ChristmasInJuly

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Imagine being Denise Crosby and having to hear your grandfather sing "White Christmas" to you over the PA system twice a year (Christmas in July and Christmas).

Playing these because Why Not?

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

For those not excited about the idea of Legacy simply because Trek should move past the Berman era, how fully are you embracing the non-Berman whatsoever Academy series idea?

The nice thing about this era of Trek is we're not stuck with one series. We get to have our cake and eat it too. Don't like Berman stuff? That's great, we have a TOS love fest. Don't like that? We have a new future to explore in Academy.

 

[Alexander Corrino]

For those not excited about the idea of Legacy simply because Trek should move past the Berman era, how fully are you embracing the non-Berman whatsoever Academy series idea?

The nice thing about this era of Trek is we're not stuck with one series. We get to have our cake and eat it too. Don't like Berman stuff? That's great, we have a TOS love fest. Don't like that? We have a new future to explore in Academy.

I have just about as much interest in the Academy series as I have in Legacy/Prodigy/Lower Decks: Exactly none. However, I do find myself intrigued by the Section 31 thingy - because I quite like Georgiou. Might watch that at some point. (I don't do streaming, I'm always waiting for DVDs.) Again, it's because of a character that my interest is peaked. It's a pattern for me.

I do agree tho. There's a lot of Trek going around. There's all of it for the die hard fans and there's some of it for the more casual audience. However, given the current state Paramount seems to be in, I don't think this broad selection is going to last.

 

[HotRod]

I'm guessing that there's been a lot more division in the years before I joined (I'm quite new), so i'm guessing the anti-Kurtzman types must've been to ones to form the "Cult of Terry", or something? I've seen that written before, somewhere.

Yes, I consider the Cult of Terry to be the extremely vocal minority of fans who generally hate everything after 2005, with the sole exception of Picard season 3.

You'll see them pop up on social media anytime someone post something about any one of the newer series, especially Discovery. They go beyond simply disliking a series, to the point of treating it like they've been personally insulted, and that their love of older Trek makes them superior to those who also like the newer stuff. You'll hear them talk about being the "real fans" of Star Trek.

They're extremely vocal of those behind the scenes, especially Kurtzman and Michelle Paradise. To the point of making rather disgusting statements such as wishing death upon them.

They pretty much view Terry Matalas, for whatever reason, to be the Savior of Star Trek. How he pushed back againt the evil of Kurtzman and pretty much singlehandedly produced the single greatest season of Star Trek, Picard season 3. They want Kurtzman fired and replaced with Matalas, forgetting that Kurtzman would have been the one who hired Matalas in the first place.

Terry himself seems to be a decent enough guy, though he's also been known to somewhat ingratiate himself to some of these toxic elements of the fandom, which is problematic, in my opinion.

 

[Daedalus]

Yes, I consider the Cult of Terry to be the extremely vocal minority of fans who generally hate everything after 2005, with the sole exception of Picard season 3.

You'll see them pop up on social media anytime someone post something about any one of the newer series, especially Discovery. They go beyond simply disliking a series, to the point of treating it like they've been personally insulted, and that their love of older Trek makes them superior to those who also like the newer stuff. You'll hear them talk about being the "real fans" of Star Trek.

They're extremely vocal of those behind the scenes, especially Kurtzman and Michelle Paradise. To the point of making rather disgusting statements such as wishing death upon them.

They pretty much view Terry Matalas, for whatever reason, to be the Savior of Star Trek. How he pushed back againt the evil of Kurtzman and pretty much singlehandedly produced the single greatest season of Star Trek, Picard season 3. They want Kurtzman fired and replaced with Matalas, forgetting that Kurtzman would have been the one who hired Matalas in the first place.

Terry himself seems to be a decent enough guy, though he's also been known to somewhat ingratiate himself to some of these toxic elements of the fandom, which is problematic, in my opinion.

A bit like Trek conspiracy theorists, then? Got it, that makes sense.

Regarding Terry and certain areas of fandom. I did watch a few videos where the likes of Nerdrotic and Dave Cullen turned up, and maybe Critical Drinker too....I can't remember who was there in total.

One in particular had Terry heavily disagree with their stance on Discovery, which I took to mean the incessant bashing on their YouTube channels. I hope that's correct, because I felt like he did a good job in that regard. He's also told Rob Burnett off a few times on Twitter, which I thought was quite decent of him. That guy can get ranty.

Basically, I'd hate to think he was guilty by association, because I feel like he did everything with the best of intentions.

 

[James Cole]

Time for morning coffee and some reply fun.

"Actually, here's a link where they do on Twitter."
"I don't use Twitter, nobody talks about Picard!"

Things like that are more denial than substantive conversation.

One thing that keeps happening on this BBS is people playing argument standing games instead of just stipulating to the fact that, look, PS3 was very popular and won back many people that had been alienated by NuTrek since 2009. If I wasn't trying to limit this to a quick reply I'd fire up Chat GPT and have it spit out Latin logical fallacies until one fit the situation.

SNW has Pike, Spock, Uhura, Chapel, Number One, Kirk, M'Benga, April, and Scotty. The SNW nostalgia-fest is OK but Legacy isn't?

But SNW = good and Legacy = bad! It's TOS vs TNG all over again, and people have picked their tribe. Whereas SNW is just a re-reboot of the 23rd century and Legacy would be a period piece continuation.

It's the general idea that irks me. Why do we have to be stuck with Berman Trek? Why not really move forward further into the 25th century, like TNG did when it left TOS mostly behind by going into the future? THAT would be an interesting spin on the term "Legacy".

&

But a show set further in the 25th century would have a LOT more options than one that's set while basically everyone from Berman Trek is still around and only waiting in the wings for guest appearances. It's Matalas trying to bait people through nostalgia that irks me.

The 24th century has the most Star Trek lore produced. It was also subject to many structural limitations like the episodic format and the sausage factory limited budget 26 episodes a season format that simply don't exist today. There's massive amounts of low hanging fruit at hand.

What's bad exactly with nostalgia btw? Many creatives involved in shows produced between 1987 till 2001 won't likely be acting in say, another 20 years from now. Every year that goes by limits possibilities.

With the whole "I don't want to see more of the Berman Era!" I can see that point-of-view BUT, what I liked about Picard was seeing Berman Era characters in a Kurtzman style production. I liked seeing a different spin on the same characters. That's what I would like to continue to see in Legacy if it happens.

I don't want static shots, Jay Chattaway muzak in the background, endless technobabble, or anything like that. Those things can stay in the past where they belong. What the characters are up to, what's changed, and how can they be portrayed in a way that they couldn't be in the '90s is what really interests me. Mixing that in with new characters as well to bring out new perspectives. I'm just as interested in seeing new characters, to be totally clear. There's room for both.

But this is nuance! How dare you question the "Lord Matalas Legacy" strawman that only exists in the minds of the proposed series' bad faith detractors?

There does seem to be a "Terry=bad" vibe going around, so I guess I'll buck the trend and say that I really quite like the guy and I was overall happy with Picard S3.

The wrong people liked PS3. Keep in mind this BBS has a survivorship bias. Go back to 2017, 2020... there were far more anti-NuTrek posts from that time. But eventually people burned out and moved on. I dipped out of NuTrek in 2019 and was just lurking off and on on the BBS, so I missed the most of it.

The largest posting constituency here now are SNW primacists.

I'm guessing that there's been a lot more division in the years before I joined (I'm quite new), so i'm guessing the anti-Kurtzman types must've been to ones to form the "Cult of Terry", or something? I've seen that written before, somewhere.

Again it's just a constructed strawman to disrupt good faith debate with hyperbole.

I say some of Kurtzman's stuff was incredibly polarizing and drew fan backlash.

The response, going off of memory from over a year ago, but if pressed I could probably search and find the direct quote: "So what you're saying is that Kurtzman should be hung, drawn, and quartered on Hollywood Blvd".

Anyhow, anyone who plays the "so what you're saying is_____" card should just be thrown out of the conversation for bad faith hyperbole, but it is what it is.

The nice thing about this era of Trek is we're not stuck with one series. We get to have our cake and eat it too. Don't like Berman stuff? That's great, we have a TOS love fest. Don't like that? We have a new future to explore in Academy.

Even Kurtzman himself has said they try to make shows to serve very different segments of the fanbase. And the single largest segment likely still must be Berman era fans. It all comes across as pulling the ladder up after some people got their share of the pie.

 

[Danja]

The response, going off of memory from over a year ago, but if pressed I could probably search and find the direct quote: "So what you're saying is that Kurtzman should be hung, drawn, and quartered on Hollywood Blvd".

There ARE people who think that way (they're the same people who are waiting with bated breath for Seth MacFarlane to buy the franchise and make "proper" Trek )

 

[James Cole]

There ARE people who think that way (they're the same people who are waiting with bated breath for Seth MacFarlane to buy the franchise and make "proper" Trek )

I mean, go back into the recent past and people were very vocal about Rick Berman and Brannon Braga. And ENT was only 1% as revisionist as 23rd century NuTrek proved to be.

 

[Lord Garth]

There ARE people who think that way (they're the same people who are waiting with bated breath for Seth MacFarlane to buy the franchise and make "proper" Trek )

Yes, I almost got an infraction a few years ago, I was this close, because I forgot my filter (this place to gets to you sometimes) and said what I thought a little more way more bluntly than usual. I definitely wasn't on their side.

Vocal minorities shouldn't be a reason why a show does or doesn't get greenlit. It's not fair to the majority who want a show, such as Legacy, but didn't act like them.

Ironically, there are a number of people here (and very likely several outside of here as well) who were huge Orville Fans and are now huge SNW Fans. So, in a way, some of them got a Star Trek series that was more like what they wanted out of Star Trek anyway.

In general, I don't think the "camps" sort as neatly as some would like to think. And, in fact, the camps don't even need to exist at all. There are people here who are fans of PIC and SNW. Thanks to someone who likes both, I'm now even posting my takes on DS9 in the DS9 Forum.

 

[JoseNoodles]

Yes, I consider the Cult of Terry to be the extremely vocal minority of fans who generally hate everything after 2005, with the sole exception of Picard season 3.

You'll see them pop up on social media anytime someone post something about any one of the newer series, especially Discovery. They go beyond simply disliking a series, to the point of treating it like they've been personally insulted, and that their love of older Trek makes them superior to those who also like the newer stuff. You'll hear them talk about being the "real fans" of Star Trek.

They're extremely vocal of those behind the scenes, especially Kurtzman and Michelle Paradise. To the point of making rather disgusting statements such as wishing death upon them.

They pretty much view Terry Matalas, for whatever reason, to be the Savior of Star Trek. How he pushed back againt the evil of Kurtzman and pretty much singlehandedly produced the single greatest season of Star Trek, Picard season 3. They want Kurtzman fired and replaced with Matalas, forgetting that Kurtzman would have been the one who hired Matalas in the first place.

Terry himself seems to be a decent enough guy, though he's also been known to somewhat ingratiate himself to some of these toxic elements of the fandom, which is problematic, in my opinion.

Right, I wouldn't mind a Star Trek: Legacy if it's launchpad for great stories, not a way for one part of the fandom to beat on another part. That's not even Matalas' view for hoping a show like it gets made.

 

[The Wormhole]

What about the new characters? (Dr. Ohk, Mura, Esma, and Shaw?)

They're barely characters. Dr. Ohk existed solely to be upstaged by Crusher, Mura stares dramatically, Esmar spews jargon. Only Shaw really counts as a character, and since he was killed off he likely wouldn't be back in Legacy.

The SNW nostalgia-fest is OK but Legacy isn't?

No one has ever denied SNW utilizes nostalgia. But it still brings something new to the table, so that the nostalgia is more just an appetizer to go along with the meal. If Legacy is anything like Picard S3 or what Matalas talks about in interviews wanting it to be, than it's going to be only nostalgia and nothing else. A meal consisting entirely of appetizers.

He's also told Rob Burnett off a few times on Twitter, which I thought was quite decent of him. That guy can get ranty.

He also granted RMB exclusive inside access to Picard S3 including letting him read scripts and talk about them online a year before the season aired. Which is why Matalas's interactions with that side of fandom can be considered "problematic."

 

[HotRod]

He also granted RMB exclusive inside access to Picard S3 including letting him read scripts and talk about them online a year before the season aired. Which is why Matalas's interactions with that side of fandom can be considered "problematic."

Indeed. Robert Meyer Burnett is the walking embodiment of everything that is wrong with a certain part of the fandom. He should be ridiculed and ignored, not granted first class access to the franchise.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

They're barely characters. Dr. Ohk existed solely to be upstaged by Crusher, Mura stares dramatically, Esmar spews jargon. Only Shaw really counts as a character, and since he was killed off he likely wouldn't be back in Legacy.

Everyone behind the scenes says they already know how they'd bring Shaw back if Legacy were to happen.

And the other "barely" characters would become characters without having to share screentime with the TNG cast that wouldn't be present.

 

[The Wormhole]

And the other "barely" characters would become characters without having to share screentime with the TNG cast that wouldn't be present.

That assumes they'd even be brought back, which is hardly a guarantee. You'll note SNW did not bring back the Enterprise's bridge officers from Disco's S2 finale and the Short Treks.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

That assumes they'd even be brought back, which is hardly a guarantee. You'll note SNW did not bring back the Enterprise's bridge officers from Disco's S2 finale and the Short Treks.

Excellent point!

 

[Daedalus]

He also granted RMB exclusive inside access to Picard S3 including letting him read scripts and talk about them online a year before the season aired. Which is why Matalas's interactions with that side of fandom can be considered "problematic."

With Kurtzman and Paramount's permission, I presume? Otherwise "problematic" would be too gentle a word. I can't imagine that Matalas would be getting any job offers if he went above executives head's like that, especially not from Disney.

 

[James Cole]

With Kurtzman and Paramount's permission, I presume? Otherwise "problematic" would be too gentle a word. I can't imagine that Matalas would be getting any job offers if he went above executives head's like that, especially not from Disney.

RMB has access to the original DISCOVERY season 1 scripts and outlines, along with Nicholas Meyer's Khan on Ceti Alpha V scripts. I've never heard any claims about him having read PS3 scripts in advance.

RMB was shown a photo of the recreated Enterprise-D bridge. Intrigued, he then called in favors from a post-production house to see the rough cut of PS3, liked what he saw, and then posted about it on Twitter.

 

[Daedalus]

RMB has access to the original DISCOVERY season 1 scripts and outlines, along with Nicholas Meyer's Khan on Ceti Alpha V scripts. I've never heard any claims about him having read PS3 scripts in advance.

RMB was shown a photo of the recreated Enterprise-D bridge. Intrigued, he then called in favors from a post-production house to see the rough cut of PS3, liked what he saw, and then posted about it on Twitter.

I had a feeling he had access to more than just Picard over the years. I will say that I dont think I had heard of the guy prior to Picard S3, so maybe it's the same for others, hence this whole Matalas thing.

Oddly enough, I did see Free Enterprise when I was a kid and thought it was going to be something completely different to what it was. That's all I remember.

 

[The Wormhole]

I've never heard any claims about him having read PS3 scripts in advance.

RMB himself tweeted about reading the S3 scripts back in June 2022, eight months before the premiere. Matalas confirmed he allowed RMB to read the scripts here. You yourself even commented on the matter here. So don't act like this is the first you're hearing about it now.

I had a feeling he had access to more than just Picard over the years. I will say that I dont think I had heard of the guy prior to Picard S3, so maybe it's the same for others, hence this whole Matalas thing.

It's true, RMB has had inside access the modern Trek productions going back to when Disco started. It was from him we learned a month in advance the Guardian of Forever was going to show up on Disco. The difference was back then it was a matter of people he knew involved in the productions leaking stuff to him, while with Picard S3 we got a showrunner actually indulging him and granting him official access. Which is a real bad look for Matalas considering RMB is the literal definition of a toxic fan and makes no effort to hide it. RMB is after all the guy who once tweeted that a woman should be publicly sexually assaulted just because she wrote a Disco episode he didn't like. By indulging RMB to the degree he did, Matalas retroactively legitimized that kind of behavior. Which, as I said, is a bad look for him.

 

[Daedalus]

It's true, RMB has had inside access the modern Trek productions going back to when Disco started. It was from him we learned a month in advance the Guardian of Forever was going to show up on Disco. The difference was back then it was a matter of people he knew involved in the productions leaking stuff to him, while with Picard S3 we got a showrunner actually indulging him and granting him official access. Which is a real bad look for Matalas considering RMB is the literal definition of a toxic fan and makes no effort to hide it. RMB is after all the guy who once tweeted that a woman should be publicly sexually assaulted just because she wrote a Disco episode he didn't like. By indulging RMB to the degree he did, Matalas retroactively legitimized that kind of behavior. Which, as I said, is a bad look for him.

Well that's disturbing, if so. Did RMB ever apologise?

It would still be interesting to know the level of permission that Matalas got from Kurtzman and Paramount in regards to releasing these scripts, because it sounds like a huge misstep judging by the tweet you mentioned. I can't imagine that Matalas went rogue as that's a career-ending move on a writer's part, I would imagine.

Not trying to shift blame or anything, but it would be nice if they were a bit more careful in the future.