Ok. What is the chance of a Picard spinoff?

[Danja]

It seemed like an interesting and fresh and suddenly very possible approach to a character we knew very little about whereas PIC and Legacy just make me think "TNG kids in space with lots of nostalgia bait due to guest appearances, no thanks".

It's not just them. It's not going to BE just about them.

What about the new characters? (Dr. Ohk, Mura, Esma, and Shaw?)

SNW has Pike, Spock, Uhura, Chapel, Number One, Kirk, M'Benga, April, and Scotty. The SNW nostalgia-fest is OK but Legacy isn't?

***something, something*** glass houses ***something, something***

 

[Lord Garth]

I'm interested in Seven because I've been a fan of the character since the '90s. I would've stopped watching VOY a few seasons sooner than I actually did if it wasn't for her. I like Raffi as well. I was a defender of the character even in the PIC Season 1 days. Jack Crusher I could take or leave, to be honest but I don't mind him. Sydney LaForge? I like her on her own. I can see her as more than Geordi's Daughter. If other people can't, it's their loss. She has her own point of view, got into a heated argument with her father who had a very different point-of-view, and isn't just Geordi Jr. but Female.

I assume the Engineer, Doctor, and other officers would new characters.

The Titan/Enterprise-G Bridge Crew, I won't lie, most of them didn't grab me, though I also didn't dislike any of them. The Disco Bridge Crew left more of an impression on me. Just being honest here. But I assume, if they're in Legacy, we'd get to see more of them.

Shaw was a highlight. If they find a way to bring him back like Terry says, that would be great.

Seven --> Not a TNG Kid
Raffi --> Not a TNG Kid
Shaw --> Not a TNG Kid

Sydney --> TNG Kid. Fair enough. But there's more to her than that.
Jack --> TNG Kid. Fair enough. I didn't like that they fast-tracked him.

New Characters (specific to Legacy) --> If Legacy happens, we'll see. If, if, if, can't repeat that enough. Most of the SNW characters didn't appear in DSC S2... so there's nothing to say all the Legacy characters would necessarily be people from Picard Season 3.

 

[Daedalus]

Discovery season 2 did far more to make me want to see a continuation of Pike's adventures aboard the Enterprise than Picard season 3 managed with Seven's Enterprise. Even the ending scene aboard Pike's Enterprise was more organic than the obviously-pleading-to-the-network-for-a-spinoff Lord Matalas wrote.

It was the total opposite for me. In fact, the most exciting part of DSC S2 was the anticipation of what would be discovered in this unknown future they were heading to. It didn't really deliver for me, but you can't replace the feeling.

Pike and crew were OK, in fact, Mount was exceptional as Discovery's captain. However, Captain Seven has way more of a blank slate to run with and no risk of a collision course with another TV show.

 

[Alexander Corrino]

I think it's far more logical to assume that a Pike show has to have some of the TOS characters than Matalas trying to make sure to pitch a show that is carried by TNG/DS9/VOY nostalgia. It's the general idea that irks me. Why do we have to be stuck with Berman Trek? Why not really move forward further into the 25th century, like TNG did when it left TOS mostly behind by going into the future? THAT would be an interesting spin on the term "Legacy". With SNW it was clear what we'd be getting. Pike means TOS characters - Number One and Spock were set because they served on his Enterprise. But a show set further in the 25th century would have a LOT more options than one that's set while basically everyone from Berman Trek is still around and only waiting in the wings for guest appearances. It's Matalas trying to bait people through nostalgia that irks me. SNW is not set in a time period where there's a lot of leeway because it's fairly close to TOS, it's even set on the same ship that we see in TOS. Of course there would be characters who also appear on TOS.

However, with Legacy the theme for the show is in the name itself. Legacy. It's right there. Of course they'd shoehorn in as much nostalgia bait with TNG/DS9/VOY characters as they can instead of just leaving things be and exploring a new timeframe set much further in the 25th century.

I guess the bottom line for me personally is "SNW didn't make me feel baited into watching for nostalgia and old times' sake... PIC season 3 tried to push me too hard and Legacy would be even worse at this".

 

[Lord Garth]

Show set near TOS has TOS stuff = Fine.

Show set near TNG/DS9/VOY has TNG/DS9/VOY stuff = Not Fine? This is a double-standard. And it seems as if Picard is being singled out. I don't see as many people having a problem with this with Lower Decks or Prodigy.

What's the difference between Lower Decks & Prodigy and Picard? What's the real difference?

I guess the bottom line for me personally is "SNW didn't make me feel baited into watching for nostalgia and old times' sake... PIC season 3 tried to push me too hard and Legacy would be even worse at this".

Okay. We all have different points-of-view. My point-of-view wasn't "I feel baited". It was "Legacy would be like a fourth season of Picard, except without Picard, and I liked the series, so I'd be onboard with more." It wasn't anything more to it than that. I'd also like a sixth season of Discovery because I liked the other five. So my thought-process for Legacy was/is along those same lines.

With the whole "I don't want to see more of the Berman Era!" I can see that point-of-view BUT, what I liked about Picard was seeing Berman Era characters in a Kurtzman style production. I liked seeing a different spin on the same characters. That's what I would like to continue to see in Legacy if it happens.

I don't want static shots, Jay Chattaway muzak in the background, endless technobabble, or anything like that. Those things can stay in the past where they belong. What the characters are up to, what's changed, and how can they be portrayed in a way that they couldn't be in the '90s is what really interests me. Mixing that in with new characters as well to bring out new perspectives. I'm just as interested in seeing new characters, to be totally clear. There's room for both.

"I want Star Trek to be like it was in 1993" isn't me. That's not what I want. That's never been what I wanted. Just look at every post I ever made in the Discovery Forum ever.

EDITED TO ADD: In fact, I'm pretty sure I'm notorious on the board for how much of a defender of Discovery I've been. I only toned down my act this past year because I finally felt like I got to a point where I was done with the detractors. I finally got it out of my system. But it took a LONG time for me to get there. So I'm definitely NOT an "Old Trek is the Only Trek!" type.

 

[Danja]

However, with Legacy the theme for the show is in the name itself. Legacy. It's right there. Of course they'd shoehorn in as much nostalgia bait with TNG/DS9/VOY characters as they can instead of just leaving things be and exploring a new timeframe set much further in the 25th century.

I guess the bottom line for me personally is "SNW didn't make me feel baited into watching for nostalgia and old times' sake... PIC season 3 tried to push me too hard and Legacy would be even worse at this".

There are two versions of Legacy running around: Matalas's version and the fans' version.

* Matalas wanted to do an anthology series (one that would not have featured Seven and the E-G crew). Matalas's show would've been more of a "Where Are They Now?" series ("What's happening with the Klingon Empire? What's happening on Bajor this week? How's Alexander doing?")

Only the most die-hard, nitpicky fans would be drawn to a show like this.

* The show the fans are campaigning for (me included) would feature Captain Seven and the Enterprise-G crew.

 

[Lord Garth]

I actually would like to see what the Klingon Empire is up to. I think it's not where people think, especially given what Ezri said, "I think the Klingon Empire is dying and it deserves to die."

But otherwise, I don't want a checklist. If there's something genuinely interesting, I'd like to see it. If it's just a checklist, well, I wasn't fond of the checklist in Generations either.

"Is there a story there?" is the question I'd ask. Doesn't matter if it's a new story or following up on an old story. Both work if done right. So, I'm not automatically against one or the other on principle.

Before someone asks, "What is the story?", I know this board, I'll cut them off at the pass and say I'm not the one who's paid to come up with or write those stories. I just enjoy them them, analyze them, try to anticipate, and sometimes come up with wild theories about what's already been aired if there's something funky in there.

 

[Daedalus]

Maybe I got all of this wrong, but to me, "Legacy" means carrying on the legacy of the shows that came before. As opposed to a show that constantly reuses legacy characters on a weekly basis.

As with the TOS movies, 5 out of 6 had very little to do with Roddenberry, in the same way that I'd imagine that this show would have little to do with Berman. In fact, Seven as she is presented in Picard, is not what Rick Berman had in mind at all.

I won't deny that other Berman era characters could appear, but the frequency of appearance should be more akin to when TOS characters appeared in TNG. For me, it's about a new crew on a new ship, first and foremost.

 

[Alexander Corrino]

Yes, the concept of Legacy that I really don't like is the one Matalas proposes. The one where he goes on and on about wanting to show "where are they now". That's the one I have issues with because all it does is scream badfic nostalgia, like season 3 of PIC did. And I do think this is the show that would get made. After all, Matalas would be the showrunner. (I wouldn't have any interest in a Captain Seven show either but that's a debate for another day, lol. Never been into VOY, never been into Seven as a character even though she had her moments and was one of the more interesting folks on VOY, granted. Still would not be interested in a show about her.)

All in all... I will admit that I'm probably not the best person to ask about Legacy. I'm extremely picky when it comes to which shows I watch, and which I don't watch. Especially when it comes to Star Trek. I watch when I have a REALLY good reason. Pike = good reason, regardless of where and when the show is set. Legacy concept = not a good reason. For ME. Keep in mind I'm not even a Trekkie.

 

[Lord Garth]

Yes, the concept of Legacy that I really don't like is the one Matalas proposes. The one where he goes on and on about wanting to show "where are they now". That's the one I have issues with because all it does is scream badfic nostalgia, like season 3 of PIC did. And I do think this is the show that would get made. After all, Matalas would be the showrunner. (I wouldn't have any interest in a Captain Seven show either but that's a debate for another day, lol. Never been into VOY, never been into Seven as a character even though she had her moments and was one of the more interesting folks on VOY, granted. Still would not be interested in a show about her.)

All in all... I will admit that I'm probably not the best person to ask about Legacy. I'm extremely picky when it comes to which shows I watch, and which I don't watch. Especially when it comes to Star Trek. I watch when I have a REALLY good reason. Pike = good reason, regardless of where and when the show is set. Legacy concept = not a good reason. For ME. Keep in mind I'm not even a Trekkie.

I can respect that.

And on that note, goodnight everyone!

 

[HotRod]

While a Star Trek: Legacy series doesn't even crack my top five list of Trek shows I'd personally want to see, I'd certainly watch it. I just personally think there are far more interesting and creative areas they could be putting their efforts, rather than adding to an era with over 600 episodes. But that me.

My issues still remain with this cult of personally that has formed around the whole idea of this series, and Matalas by extension. How toxic fandom has grabbed ahold of it as the "Savior of Star Trek." Implying that Star Trek needs saving. One doesn't need to look far to find this notion online being held by some of the worst elements of the fandom.

It's fans wishing harm upon certain creatives while hoisting Matalas on a pedestal that leaves a pretty sour taste in my mouth. I'd rather that side of the fandom not be rewarded for their disgusting behavior.

And just to be clear, it's perfectly fine to dislike something. But those elements of the fandom take their dislike of "nuTrek" to embarrassing levels.

 

[Danja]

Yes, the concept of Legacy that I really don't like is the one Matalas proposes. The one where he goes on and on about wanting to show "where are they now". That's the one I have issues with because all it does is scream badfic nostalgia, like season 3 of PIC did. And I do think this is the show that would get made.

This is the show for the fans who watch Lower Decks and scream, "THOSE ARE THE SAME FLOOR TILES THAT WERE FEATURED IN SEASON THREE OF DEEP SPACE NINE! THAT CHAIR WAS IN SEASON FIVE OF TNG!"

I like the occasional Easter egg, but I'm not anywhere NEAR that obsessed!

Disco S1 was originally intended to be Trek's answer to Game of Thrones (all the warring Klingon houses). Bryan Fuller was fired and Kurtzman put the kibosh on that plot arc.

After all, Matalas would be the showrunner. (I wouldn't have any interest in a Captain Seven show either but that's a debate for another day, lol. Never been into VOY, never been into Seven as a character even though she had her moments and was one of the more interesting folks on VOY, granted. Still would not be interested in a show about her.)

I've followed Seven since Voyager (she's the main reason I started watching Voyager in the first place.)

She's unlike any other Captain the Enterprise has ever had. She's not like Pike or Picard. She's not an unabashed goody-goody (she was evil incarnate for eighteen years). She has a long history of doing VERY bad things (she's killed and enslaved).

How does she go from spending the bulk of her career as a loner to commanding a crew of five hundred people? How does she interact with the crew? How does her shady past impact her decision making?

Those are some character threads the show could follow up on.

 

[Precious Tritium]

Prodigy season 2 should be the template for any sort of 25th Century show going forward, not Picard season 3. Despite both seasons being filled with lore and fan service etc, Prodigy actually feels like a show that's looking forward, with new ideas and new characters. Picard felt like a show that was stuck in the past.

I have no problem revisiting the Klingons, the Cardassians, the Romulans, or any number of species we met over the course of the Berman era. I just don't want Matalas to be the one to do that. He brought back the Changelings already and did absolutely nothing interesting with them. They have some old grudges that don't get resolved by the end of the season. (Picard doesn't even try to reason with her on that one, just goes straight to executing her.) They make an alliance with the Borg that makes no sense on paper and isn't even remotely explained within the show. Worst of all they get brushed aside eight episodes in to make way for the Borg. There's no DS9 characters involved, besides Worf who provides absolutely no insight on them besides like one throwaway line.

It's shallow world-building. It's name-dropping something I'm familiar with without giving me anything new to latch onto. By the end of the season I know nothing about the Changelongs I didn't already know by the end of DS9. Honestly, I think I understand them less.

I do not want this guy to tell me what happened to the Klingon Empire, because I already know the answer will be uniquely uninteresting. I don't want this guy fleshing out the 25th Century because I don't think he has anything noteworthy to say.

If we're gonna make a Legacy show, then put someone like the Hageman's or Waltke in charge. There's nothing wrong with leaning on Trek's history and utilising it when it makes sense, but for Gods sake, let's do something fresh with it.

 

[Danja]

As with the TOS movies, 5 out of 6 had very little to do with Roddenberry, in the same way that I'd imagine that this show would have little to do with Berman. In fact, Seven as she is presented in Picard, is not what Rick Berman had in mind at all.

Rick Berman originally just wanted a hot piece of a%# to goose the ratings among the 18-35yo male demographic.

Jeri Ryan had to fight for Seven (she came to Picard on the condition of "No catsuit").

I'm pleased to see how she's developed on Picard (she's now a soldier first and foremost).

Prodigy season 2 should be the template for any sort of 25th Century show going forward, not Picard season 3. Despite both seasons being filled with lore and fan service etc, Prodigy actually feels like a show that's looking forward, with new ideas and new characters. Picard felt like a show that was stuck in the past.

I could've done without the TNG reunion, thank you very much.

I have no problem revisiting the Klingons, the Cardassians, the Romulans, or any number of species we met over the course of the Berman era. I just don't want Matalas to be the one to do that. He brought back the Changelings already and did absolutely nothing interesting with them.

I share your feelings about Matalas (he leaned too heavily into the Berman era for my taste).

There are some things that should stay back in the nineties (Women reduced to being helpmates for the guys, LGBTQ+ erasure, etc.).

They have some old grudges that don't get resolved by the end of the season. (Picard doesn't even try to reason with her on that one, just goes straight to executing her.) They make an alliance with the Borg that makes no sense on paper and isn't even remotely explained within the show. Worst of all they get brushed aside eight episodes in to make way for the Borg. There's no DS9 characters involved, besides Worf who provides absolutely no insight on them besides like one throwaway line.

It's shallow world-building. It's name-dropping something I'm familiar with without giving me anything new to latch onto. By the end of the season I know nothing about the Changelongs I didn't already know by the end of DS9. Honestly, I think I understand them less.

At the time, they were up against the clock (they were rushing to do two seasons back-to-back). There was also the time lost due to the Covid-19 lockdowns.

If we're gonna make a Legacy show, then put someone like the Hageman's or Waltke in charge. There's nothing wrong with leaning on Trek's history and utilising it when it makes sense, but for Gods sake, let's do something fresh with it.

Even Prodigy has heavy doses of Chakotay, the EMH, and Janeway (so much so, it's considered a sequel to Voyager).

 

[Lord Garth]

Prodigy season 2 should be the template for any sort of 25th Century show going forward, not Picard season 3. Despite both seasons being filled with lore and fan service etc, Prodigy actually feels like a show that's looking forward, with new ideas and new characters. Picard felt like a show that was stuck in the past.

I have no problem revisiting the Klingons, the Cardassians, the Romulans, or any number of species we met over the course of the Berman era. I just don't want Matalas to be the one to do that. He brought back the Changelings already and did absolutely nothing interesting with them. They have some old grudges that don't get resolved by the end of the season. (Picard doesn't even try to reason with her on that one, just goes straight to executing her.) They make an alliance with the Borg that makes no sense on paper and isn't even remotely explained within the show. Worst of all they get brushed aside eight episodes in to make way for the Borg. There's no DS9 characters involved, besides Worf who provides absolutely no insight on them besides like one throwaway line.

It's shallow world-building. It's name-dropping something I'm familiar with without giving me anything new to latch onto. By the end of the season I know nothing about the Changelongs I didn't already know by the end of DS9. Honestly, I think I understand them less.

I do not want this guy to tell me what happened to the Klingon Empire, because I already know the answer will be uniquely uninteresting. I don't want this guy fleshing out the 25th Century because I don't think he has anything noteworthy to say.

If we're gonna make a Legacy show, then put someone like the Hageman's or Waltke in charge. There's nothing wrong with leaning on Trek's history and utilising it when it makes sense, but for Gods sake, let's do something fresh with it.

I can't sleep. Anyway...

This is the type of argument I was looking for. Doesn't matter if I agree with it or not, but I can see all the reasoning here and it's not just buzzwords.

I haven't seen Prodigy Season 2 yet, though I'm really looking forward to it from what I've been hearing. Then, after that, I can compare notes for myself. Especially since Prodigy and Picard are both Post-Nemesis and Serialized.

In case anyone needs to hear the words, let me say them: Though I like Terry Matalas as Showrunner, I have no problem with someone else being the Showrunner of a Picard follow-up.

But, I will put this out there: One of the reasons why I watched 12 Monkeys was because I wanted to see what Terry would do with a series where he had to create characters roughly 95% from scratch (or more). The TV Series and the 1995 movie only have the most superficial similarities. Watching that show convinced me he could pull off running a show from start-to-finish.

Picard Season 3... it's a cross between a TOS Movie and a TNG Movie and had all the associated tropes. The Dominion in PIC S3 were handled basically the way I would've expected them to have been handled in a TNG Movie. PIC Season 3, they were very upfront about, was "the final TNG Movie TNG never had". In Legacy, I don't think he'd be trying to make a Star Trek movie. He'd be trying to make a Star Trek show. Whether or not it would be something to everyone's liking is another argument for another post. But I don't think he'd be trying to make the same thing because it wouldn't be the same aim.

Plus, I found this out from reading Patrick Stewart's autobiography Making It So, Paramount mandated that Picard Season 3 be a TNG Reunion and he said it was what he'd said he didn't want. And he insisted that the TNG characters be trickled in if they had to be there. So, it wouldn't have mattered if it was Terry Matalas, Akiva Goldsman, Michael Chabon... or Gene Roddeneberry or Jules Verne! PIC Season 3 would've been a TNG Reunion no matter who was the Showrunner.

 

[Danja]

I can't sleep. Anyway...

I know the feeling.

I've been channel surfing between QVC's Kitchen Sale and Christmas in July on Music Choice (I like Perry Como. Mariah Carey ... Not so much. )

 

[Daedalus]

There does seem to be a "Terry=bad" vibe going around, so I guess I'll buck the trend and say that I really quite like the guy and I was overall happy with Picard S3.

Especially the send off for the TNG crew.

I'm guessing that there's been a lot more division in the years before I joined (I'm quite new), so i'm guessing the anti-Kurtzman types must've been to ones to form the "Cult of Terry", or something? I've seen that written before, somewhere.

I'd prefer him in charge of Legacy, but it's not the end of the world if it's someone else.

Rick Berman originally just wanted a hot piece of a%# to goose the ratings among the 18-35yo male demographic.

Jeri Ryan had to fight for Seven (she came to Picard on the condition of "No catsuit").

It feels like she's finally found herself with PIC S3, and I think that Jeri Ryan was pleased with how her character found her place as Captain of the G.

It's a good place to end it, but also a great place for new adventures.

 

[Lord Garth]

Making It So, by Patrick Stewart, Page 435-436:

"For Season Three, our last, Terry Matalas, by then Picard's showrunner, told me that the studio wanted a full Next Generation reunion. Ugh, just what I had firmly said I didn't want. But that had been three years ago. Now I was less resistant, having enjoyed working with Jonathan, Brent, Marina, John, and Whoopi. As an executive producer, I had a say in how we might go about achieving such a reunion. I told Terry, "I like the idea, provided that we don't bring them back all at once. Let's trickle them back in.​

​

It was essential to me that each TNG character came into the picture because he or she had a specific contribution to make and it wasn't just sentimental window dressing. If Jean-Luc had changed so much over the years, so, too, surely, had the other members of the Enterprise crew. The writers, bless them, took this to heart."​

​

I'm glad I bought that book!

 

[Lord Garth]

I know the feeling.

I've been channel surfing between QVC's Kitchen Sale and Christmas in July on Music Choice (I like Perry Como. Mariah Carey ... Not so much. )

For me it's this humidity!

Putting the dehumidifier on...

 

[Danja]

For me it's this humidity!

Putting the dehumidifier on...

I'm in Florida.

I know all about the humidity!


#ChristmasInJuly

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Imagine being Denise Crosby and having to hear your grandfather sing "White Christmas" to you over the PA system twice a year (Christmas in July and Christmas).