Spoilers Empire of Death grade and discussion thread

[Jedman67]

Why does the mystery of Ruby's mom hold so much power? Because it's a story, unleashed by the salt line in WBY.
Why Ruby? The goblins tried erasing her from time. If they'd been a little more successful, there would be no Ruby at all, they would have made her not born at all.
It created a paradox

 

[The Wormhole]

I assume we'll find out next season that Ruby is really a Palpatine.

This season: Ruby's mother is just an ordinary person.
Next season: Ruby's father is the son of Davros.

 

[Mr Awe]

I think that is a critical part of the stories of the first season:
The Toymaker was defeated by the Doctor, but Maestro was defeated by a couple of musicians.
Sutakh didn't care about all the other thousands of orphans who never knew their parents because none of them were traveling with the Doctor. But Ruby being a time traveler, it just frustrated him to the point he needed that answered. But Ruby is 100% human (as had been said several times over the season) and - defeated Sutakh by just being herself. As powerful as the Pantheon is, these gods are not invincible and all it takes is the right person at the right time to stop them.

That's my take. Ruby is special because of who she became, not because of how she was born.

There was just so much weirdness surrounding the mother. The cloak, the dramatic pointing, the snow, etc. And, because identifying the mother was so important to Ruby, that makes it so both she and Sutekh can't see her face?! Seems like it would make it easier! Too much weirdness that doesn't make sense.

In short, given his powers, I can't buy that he was unable to see her face. He can track and possess any person at any point in time with dead cells. But not Louise?

 

[JD]

I did not like the way it a little song about babies being eaten, and think threatening children in so direct a manner is inappropriate for Doctor Who and lazy. It also bothers me on an emotional level. So I refused to watch.
(I caught the end of Devils Chord on transmission, and decided I wouldn’t be bothering until Boom because that was a Moffat episode.)

It’s cheap audience manipulation (particularly the way Rusty does it) so I won’t be touching it. Read a synopsis and that’s enough for me.
There’s classic serials I haven’t watched (on account of not being born when they were on or otherwise having to miss them ) but have read the target novelisation of, and a couple I only know the basics of. I’m not racing to watch Season 24s middle episodes, having found the books likely better, and I haven’t been fussed with most of Jodie’s first season either. I did go back and watch the Capaldi ones I skipped after that era started going off the rails mind you.

OK, that's fair.

The problem with the Rubys mother reveal is that RTD kept telling you that there was steak for dinner, steak for dinner, steak for dinner — only it was chicken all along.

‘We’ didn’t make Rubys mother important, he did.

And it’s didn’t land because he had to lie in the writing, over and over, to get the result he wanted from the audience. He’s done it a lot this season.

Where did he lie? I don't really see where anything he did was that bad, he built things up a lot, but I've seen that so much from people like him that it doesn't really bother me any more. It's pretty much just standard practice for people involved with these kind of shows and movies at this point.

It’s also possible it’s going to happen again, because Ruby will be back, and it makes so little sense. But all that does is make this ‘finale’ into another lie.
It’s also a bit bigger than everyone years ago scratching their head and going ‘ok, yeah, Bad Wolf… but… why those words?’ and everything else working, so he’s not getting away with the shoddiness of it this time. (Surprised he didn’t try to tie that into the Sutekh thing. Or maybe he was going to, and then remembered Sutekh was a jackal.)

Subverting expectations is a thing that when it does work, can’t be based on completely lying to your reader/viewer/player, and building false expectation.

He is literally crying Wolf, and pretty soon, people just won’t bother coming to the field.

I guess I just don't see where this is that big of a deal and worth being that upset about.

The problem (for me at least) is that while the reveal that her birth mom is a normal person could be totally fine in certain contexts, it didn't work in this context. It had been built up throughout the season to be something super important. In fact, there was something so amazing about the mom that even Sutekh, who destroyed all life in the Universe, couldn't see her face (because reasons).

But the finale covered explained all of this, so I don't see why it would still be a problem.

RTD created expectations that it would be something grandiose but it ended up being mundane. If the setup was different, sure, being a normal person is a great outcome. But that's not a natural outcome of a situation where they couldn't see her face using the Time Window and it was a mystery to Sutekh as well.

I had assumed all of that was because the Doctor, Ruby, and the security cameras and everything we saw was based on those. As for Sutekh, I thought his whole obsession started because the Doctor and Ruby wanted to know, so he wanted to know too.

Subverting expectations can work but it didn't for me in this case. We got so many clues and it really seems to have been to get people chattering rather than for producing a great mystery story. That's why I no longer give a flip about Mrs. Flood.

I've been convinced since the beginning that Mrs. Flood was going to be the more lore heavy, important reveal since we've gotten more direct hints that there's something really odd going on with her.

 

[Guy Gardener]

There was just so much weirdness surrounding the mother. The cloak, the dramatic pointing, the snow, etc. And, because identifying the mother was so important to Ruby, that makes it so both she and Sutekh can't see her face?! Seems like it would make it easier! Too much weirdness that doesn't make sense.

In short, given his powers, I can't buy that he was unable to see her face. He can track and possess any person at any point in time with dead cells. But not Louise?

Ever since I saw a comicbook where the Doctor says that the TARDIS has already built tailored rooms for the companions that he hasn't met yet, I knew that the same was true of the Doctor's enemies. Which means that the TARDIS knows what is out the front door every week, and they pick an appropriate Doctor for the presented threat level... Or in the Fires of Pompei the Doctor said he can see the different timelines between turning left and turning right, so he picks the timeline where he lives and good prospers. If the TARDIS has has the same ability, then it must throw every Doctor/Companion combination against each weekly threat until one of them lives, and good prospers.

So...

The TARDIS had been waiting for a Doctor that could beat this version of Sutekh, or every other version of the Doctor/Companions had been thrown against Sutekh and either failed, died, or won the day less than completely, and the TARDIS reset time.

 

[Jedman67]

There was just so much weirdness surrounding the mother. The cloak, the dramatic pointing, the snow, etc. And, because identifying the mother was so important to Ruby, that makes it so both she and Sutekh can't see her face?! Seems like it would make it easier! Too much weirdness that doesn't make sense.

In short, given his powers, I can't buy that he was unable to see her face. He can track and possess any person at any point in time with dead cells. But not Louise?

It's a fair criticism, although I would counter that an alien who can clone avatars at will that could kill entire planets just with dust; having a character with psychic snow is no big deal

 

[The Nth Doctor]

There was just so much weirdness surrounding the mother. The cloak, the dramatic pointing, the snow, etc. And, because identifying the mother was so important to Ruby, that makes it so both she and Sutekh can't see her face?! Seems like it would make it easier! Too much weirdness that doesn't make sense.

In short, given his powers, I can't buy that he was unable to see her face. He can track and possess any person at any point in time with dead cells. But not Louise?

I absolutely agree that part of the mystery was dumb. I get what Davies was trying to say but it came off really hokey.

 

[jaime]

OK, that's fair.

Where did he lie? I don't really see where anything he did was that bad, he built things up a lot, but I've seen that so much from people like him that it doesn't really bother me any more. It's pretty much just standard practice for people involved with these kind of shows and movies at this point.

I guess I just don't see where this is that big of a deal and worth being that upset about.

But the finale covered explained all of this, so I don't see why it would still be a problem.

I had assumed all of that was because the Doctor, Ruby, and the security cameras and everything we saw was based on those. As for Sutekh, I thought his whole obsession started because the Doctor and Ruby wanted to know, so he wanted to know too.

I've been convinced since the beginning that Mrs. Flood was going to be the more lore heavy, important reveal since we've gotten more direct hints that there's something really odd going on with her.

He lies both in and out of the text he is presenting, he hypes things up quite a bit past honest hyperbole as show runner, and as a writer he’s been taking the show past unreliable narrator territory (which you really can’t decently do without specific POV or narrator characters… I think Moffat barely got away with it with the simulation episode that was prologue to the monks, and that generally fell flat with audiences too) with things like Rubys mother here.
Is it possible there’s more to come that will provide better in story logic for everything of course.
But then that makes this ‘ending’ even more of a lie (as opposed to a misdirect)
He seems to be emulating a lot of stuff from other places, without quite understanding why those other stories made it work. (Or why it maybe didn’t, as with something like Rey Palpatine/Skywalker) Which for a person who has been writing as long as he has, on a show with the goodwill and profile that Doctor Who has, is not a good thing.

As to upset? I am really not that bothered. Which is sad in itself, or surprisingly mature, I can’t decide which. I’ve only been watching the show, following it behind the scenes, reading its expanded stuff for forty years or so. Goodness knows I could do with fifty minutes of enjoyable escapism one a week at the moment too. I really should be *more* bothered. Instead I’m just disappointed.
At this point I might only be watching the show so I have a better foundation for watching people talk about the show (I avoid general media critics on YouTube, like The Critical Drinker, for whom it is just another popular bandwagon show, but I do watch established Who fans) rather than for the show itself.
This is the first time ever that I am looking forward to them changing the lead actor too. There’s been maybe a handful of scenes where I could buy Ncuti was the Doctor, and far too many where he wasn’t. For once I am not even sure it’s *just* the writing either. (Or the daft costuming choices, which reached a nadir this week with a costume change mid episode for no apparent reason and with no apparent resources to do it.)

It’s the shoddiest it’s been since 1987. (Edit: and the writing was better in 87)

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

It’s the shoddiest it’s been since 1987. (Edit: and the writing was better in 87)

You are reaching.

 

[jaime]

You are reaching.

I dunno. 87 who was on the ropes, most of the flaws were in production (largely cost) for the remainder of its years. Paradise Towers was ripping of High Rise, but it knew what and why. I’ve never watched the episodes, but the books held together which is where the story has to work on its own.
I mean, I’d still sit through Boom! again rather than finally watch all of Delta & The Bannermen, but I’d probably watch Dragonfire twenty times more than sit through Dot&Bubble, Rogue, finally watch any of the first three all the way through, and quite possibly even 73 yards.
Seasons 25 and 26 knock everything this year into a cocked hat. Yes, even Happiness Patrol and Battlefield. Silver Nemesis is on the edge I suppose.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I watched Happiness Patrol this morning. It's intentionally a sarcastic farse, and if I knew more about Thatcher's Briton, I'd probably be able to isolate some glaring parallels.

I working my way through McCoy's episodes, and I don't know if the abrasive story shrinkage was a creative or economic decision.

 

[jaime]

I watched Happiness Patrol this morning. It's intentionally a sarcastic farse, and if I knew more about Thatcher's Briton, I'd probably be able to isolate some glaring parallels.

I working my through McCoy's episodes, and I don't know if the abbraive story shrinkage was a creative or economic decision.

Economic. (Though they decided that just cos it was cheap didn’t mean they couldn’t make it arty)
Tbh, the Thatcher stuff isn’t there as much as some people say (it’s mostly after-the-fact and a hint of it with Helen A’s portrayal and the husband figure) it’s more like a sort of… right wing banana republic thing. It’s ironically more… apt, today. People being told what to think, what to be happy about. It’s even kind of flipped about, with the idea of powers+that-be literally painting things pink and telling you to be joyful really landing differently next to the not-so-subtle gay rights subtext which is all over that story.
Also features the Doctor singing I believe…
The sniper scene is great, and one of those early bits where you can see the clown-seven turning to what McCoy was *actually* hired for from his audition tapes. That sort of barely held rage and very quiet power-taking control.
Sadly that is also likely the seeds of NuWhos speechifying Doctor, who has become more and more caricature and not always as effective. Though Smith and Capaldi could do it really well, I thought. The quiet age and rage, just there.
At the time, I thought it was a bit weird and naff, particularly the Kandyman (who is so much better on the page than what they went with on screen) but I wasn’t even in double figures. I did like Ace and the Pipe People though. Especially the way they picked up her language. It was like more interesting Ewoks.
(They did consider transmitting it in B&W apparently, but I don’t think the pinks would have worked…)

 

[Turtletrekker]

Unsurprisingly (especially to those of us who already pointed out the obvious parallels), Davies says Ruby's ordinary parents was a direct reaction to The Rise of Skywalker and Rey's parentage:

“This is kind of my reaction to, bear with me now, the Star Wars films,” Davies said of the reveal about Ruby’s birth mother on an audio commentary track for “Empire of Death” released by the BBC. “I can’t remember their titles but in the last trilogy, [The Last Jedi] said that Daisy Ridley was nothing special. There was nothing special about her parentage. That she just got the Force, and was an ordinary person with the Force. And then in the next one they changed it all so that she was this child of the Emperor... and I really loved the version where she wasn’t special.”​

​

“[Ruby’s] not the daughter of Sutekh. She’s not the daughter of the Time Lords, or Rassilon, or something like that,” Davies continued. “Her mum is Louise Miller, who was 15 years old and pregnant, from a dangerous home, an abusive home, and left her child on the doorstep. That’s my reaction to [The Rise of Skywalker], because I think that’s a better story.”​

​

I find this reaction encouraging and I hope this completely dispells my fear of the other shoe dropping next season won't actually happen. Davies much preferred The Last Jedi's take on Rey's parents (as did I) over The Rise of Skywalker's walking back that take.

So, what we can take away from "Empire of Death" is that Russell T Davies really hated "The Rise of Skywalker" and really loved "Avengers Infinity War / Endgame".

 

[jaime]

So, what we can take away from "Empire of Death" is that Russell T Davies really hated " The Rise of Skywalker" and really loved "Avengers Infinity War / Endgame".

And that he genuinely does believe there’s no such thing as bad press. (Apparently in the commentary or what have you, he basically says the whole thing around Rubys mum was so he could get people generating content.)

 

[Turtletrekker]

Fun fact-- Jemma Redgrave has now appeared in as many episodes of Doctor Who as Christopher Eccleston did.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Fun fact-- Jemma Redgrave has now appeared in as many episodes of Doctor Who as Christopher Eccleston did.

Waiting for the point where she's been in as many stories as Nicholas Courtney (I doubt she'll surpass episodes however).

 

[Seven of Five]

She isn't.

Despite the ending of this episode making it seem otherwise, Millie will be returning for all of Series 15 (this has been explicitly confirmed by RTD) alongside Ncuti and Varada Sethu.

Not long after my original post, I discovered the news on another site, so I'm happy that she's sticking around.

 

[Starkers]

Fun fact-- Jemma Redgrave has now appeared in as many episodes of Doctor Who as Christopher Eccleston did.

See the weird thing is, I'd have guessed she'd been in way more.

 

[jaime]

Well, on the plus side, since they did nothing with the recurring religious people trope this year, maybe it’s just RTD getting a dig in a lot.
On the other hand, there’s a Mrs.Flood, so maybe we’re going to end up with ‘Dr.Who vs God’ next year.
As to whether she’s the White Guardian… well, one assumes they would have noticed the Osirian/Egyptian dyslexic Dog on the Tardis.

 

[The Wormhole]

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