Spoilers The Controversial Star Wars Opinion Thread

[Turtletrekker]

I'm of a mixed opinion of The Last Jedi. I thought most of the stuff was Luke and Rey was Empire Strikes Back level stuff. The moment where Luke called out the Jedi for being responsible for their own destruction was a cheer out loud moment for me, and in a lot of ways, a huge culmative moment for the saga as a whole.

The rest of the movie, was Jar Jar Binks level bad. It destroyed the character of Poe, turning him into an insufferable asshole who wound up getting most of the Resistance killed with his stupidity. He was to the Resistance what Anakin Skywalker was to the Jedi Order. The only moment with Poe that I cheered for in the entire movie was when Leia shot his dumb ass.

The whole casino thing was pointless to the larger story and only resulted in putting the DJ character into a position to betray the Resistance. His was a character that I could have done without entirely.

#HoldowasRight

 

[kirk55555]

I think that the casino stuff in TLJ was really important to Finn's arc. I think they could have cut out the horse race stuff, including the chase scene, but Finn learning (with help from Rose) to learn to care about a cause was important and made sense for his character journey.

I also loved the Rey/Luke stuff, it was not what I was expecting but I think it worked perfectly. Maybe it helps that I've never considered Jedi to be flawless, in fact The Clone Wars (the cartoon and the era in general) really showed how up their own rear ends Jedi can be, and how out of touch they got with the rest of the galaxy by the end.

As for Holdo/Poe, I blame both of them. Poe was obviously the go to guy with Leia down, but Holdo was acting mysteriously for no reason, I think all the choices Poe made were correct given the information at his disposal. Holdo being some super secretive militaristic dingus was the big issue, Poe just did what anyone should have done in that situation. Its not like Han Solo wouldn't have disobeyed what he perceived as stupid orders, and the whole point of the Resistance/Rebellion is that they aren't mindlessly following orders. Poe proved in the bombing run that he doesn't always have a grasp on tactics and gets too caught up in things, which is bad and I get why he's in the metaphorical doghouse, but that still doesn't justify Holdo's secrecy. Poe might be a hothead, but he's obviously loyal to the Resistance and frankly probably the most important member that actually fights on the front lines, he's not some toady to be shoved aside during important decisions.

 

[fireproof78]

#HoldowasRight

Definitely.

I think that the casino stuff in TLJ was really important to Finn's arc. I think they could have cut out the horse race stuff, including the chase scene, but Finn learning (with help from Rose) to learn to care about a cause was important and made sense for his character journey.

I agree, and in my opinion it works better with the confrontation with Phasma deleted scene back in, were Finn discloses that Phasma had betrayed the First Order to save her own skin. Keeping that cements Finn becoming a full on fighter for the cause, rather than someone always looking for the way out.

I also loved the Rey/Luke stuff, it was not what I was expecting but I think it worked perfectly. Maybe it helps that I've never considered Jedi to be flawless, in fact The Clone Wars (the cartoon and the era in general) really showed how up their own rear ends Jedi can be, and how out of touch they got with the rest of the galaxy by the end.

I do as well, though I never considered the Jedi perfect, but by the end of the PT I was left going "Why should I ever want the Jed to come back?" And with the PT, the Clone Wars, and such, it bore out in a way that I expected: the Jedi still were struggling to regain their grasp of their own identify, of why Obi-Wan and Yoda valued it so highly as a fight against the Dark Side.

 

[JD]

I think individually The Sequel Trilogy movies are great, but as a trilogy they don't really stick together very well, they're too inconsistent. They should have just let JJ Abrams direct all three movies and worked harder to come up with a more cohesive storyline across all three movies.

 

[Relayer1]

They should have just let JJ Abrams direct all three movies and worked harder to come up with a more cohesive storyline across all three movies.

Yes to the cohesive storyline.

Hard no to Abrams being allowed within a thousand miles of the franchise. Or any other franchise for that matter.

 

[fireproof78]

hey should have just let JJ Abrams direct all three movies and worked harder to come up with a more cohesive storyline across all three movies.

Damn straight. I welcome Abrams' more involved.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Actually, they should have let anybody but JJ Abrams come up with a cohesive storyline across all three movies.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Yes to the cohesive storyline.

Hard no to Abrams being allowed within a thousand miles of the franchise. Or any other franchise for that matter.

Second.[/Scruffy]

 

[Reverend]

I'm of a mixed opinion of The Last Jedi. I thought most of the stuff was Luke and Rey was Empire Strikes Back level stuff. The moment where Luke called out the Jedi for being responsible for their own destruction was a cheer out loud moment for me, and in a lot of ways, a huge culmative moment for the saga as a whole.

Up until recently I would have said that I broadly agree with this; but while I've gone back and forth on it over the years I find the more distance I get from the movie, the more Luke's whole characterisation bothers me, and I'm increasingly on the same page as Mark Hamill about it all.

I mean Luke is the person who saw the good in Darth Vader of all people, and he wasn't only *right* about him, he gambled his life on that belief . . . and the ST wants us to think that this is the guy who gives up on everything, including his own nephew because of one singular moment of doubt?

In fairness, this isn't specifically a fault with TLJ, since Luke's deliberate isolation of inherited from TFA, and they were hamstrung by that quite literal cliffhanger. If one is forced to start with the premise that Luke has done a runner and has gone into hiding right when everything is falling apart, options are rather limited.
The only way I could see flipping that into something more salvageable to make it so that Luke wasn't hiding from what was happening, but he was searching for the source of it all. That he sensed that Snoke was just a puppet, and he was hunting for the puppeteer, but was stranded/trapped in the process. That would have at least made the set-up for the next movie a little smoother if they were still intent on the clone silliness, while preserving Luke's character a little more, but hindsight is 20/20.

Also; while saying that the Jedi Order of old fundamentally screwed up certainly feels nice to hear out loud, it's arguably redundant since the whole of the saga until then already *showed* us that it did. I kinda put it an the same category as that weird moment when Maz give Chewbacca Han's old medal; in that it feels like pandering to people that simply weren't paying attention the first time round. Some things shouldn't need to be spelled out or spoon fed.

 

[fireproof78]

Actually, they should have let anybody but JJ Abrams come up with a cohesive storyline across all three movies.

Never got the antipathy directed towards this person. I would rather Abrams over many current Hollywood directors. So "anyone" is a rather large swipe.

I mean Luke is the person who saw the good in Darth Vader of all people, and he wasn't only *right* about him, he gambled his life on that belief . . . and the ST wants us to think that this is the guy who gives up on everything, including his own nephew because of one singular moment of doubt?

Mostly he gave up on himself, which is consistent with both his temperament, and what he was trained.

it's arguably redundant since the whole of the saga until then already *showed* us that it did.

Yes, but no at the same time. I never got the sense, post prequels, that the Jedi were something that had a good aspect after the screw ups. That I should be excited for the "Return of the Jedi" because that signals something good. I mean, yes, the fall of the Empire is good, but then what?

 

[Turtletrekker]

Never got the antipathy directed towards this person. I would rather Abrams over many current Hollywood directors. So "anyone" is a rather large swipe.

If you say so. I count his Star Wars movies at the very bottom of the pack, both derivative and predictable without adding anything new or original to the saga.

His Star Trek movies were, again, derivative. And hollow feeling. lots of flash but lacking the depth that a Star Trek project should have.

And the finale of Lost made me feel like I had wasted 6 years of my life.

So, yeah, for me it's "three strikes and you're out". I would rather see just about anyone work on the the franchise, or any franchise that I care about. Buerhaps "anyone" was too broad a swipe. If Rebel Moon is truly indicative of what Zack Snyder wanted to bring to the franchise, then it's true that it could have always been much, much worse.

YMMV

 

[fireproof78]

If you say so. I count his Star Wars movies at the very bottom of the pack, both derivative and predictable without adding anything new or original to the saga.

His Star Trek movies were, again, derivative. And hollow feeling. lots of flash but lacking the depth that a Star Trek project should have.

And the finale I've lost made me feel like I had wasted 6 years of my life.

So, yeah, for me it's "three strikes and you're out". I would rather see just about anyone work on the the franchise, or any franchise that I care about. Buerhaps "anyone" was too broad a swipe. If Rebel Moon is truly indicative of what Zack Snyder wanted to bring to the franchise, then it's true that it could have always been much, much worse.

YMMV

Well, if you felt like you wasted time I don't blame you.

I find depth in all his Trek and Wars works, so mileage clearly varies.

 

[Ithekro]

I think my problem with Abrams isn't his direction of the films....he's good at action and getting acting out the of the players. My problem is his tendency to setup "mystery boxes" that don't actually go anywhere. Or hype of something that doesn't need hyping, for what generally is an unsatisfying payoff. He's not good on sticking the landing for a series resolution. He's good at setup if they hire someone creative enough to follow through, or write their way out of the "box"

 

[The Nth Doctor]

And the finale I've lost made me feel like I had wasted 6 years of my life.

I'm not one to defend Abrams, but he had nothing to do with the LOST series finale. Lindelof and Cuse wrote it and Jack Bender directed it. Any issues you have with the finale is on them and not Abrams (and, no, they weren't dead the whole time).

 

[fireproof78]

I think my problem with Abrams isn't his direction of the films....he's good at action and getting acting out the of the players. My problem is his tendency to setup "mystery boxes" that don't actually go anywhere. Or hype of something that doesn't need hyping, for what generally is an unsatisfying payoff. He's not good on sticking the landing for a series resolution. He's good at setup if they hire someone creative enough to follow through, or write their way out of the "box"

Ok, but people pin so much on Abrams that isn't his. He gets ripped over ST 09, yet ignore the writers strike and inability to make any adjustments to the script. Or Into Darkness which had Lindelof pushing for Khan.

Yes, he gets to make decisions but he's not this all powerful person. He's a creator who also tries to collaborate.

 

[Set Harth]

I think my problem with Abrams isn't his direction of the films....he's good at action and getting acting out the of the players. My problem is his tendency to setup "mystery boxes" that don't actually go anywhere. Or hype of something that doesn't need hyping, for what generally is an unsatisfying payoff. He's not good on sticking the landing for a series resolution. He's good at setup if they hire someone creative enough to follow through, or write their way out of the "box"

Abrams seems to be one of these guys who, when you hire them for a directing gig, part of the deal is that they're also writing or co-writing it. Like it's in his standard contract or something. Lens flares ( and possible scaling issues? ) aside, it is as you say, his competence in direction is not the issue.

 

[Reverend]

Ok, but people pin so much on Abrams that isn't his. He gets ripped over ST 09, yet ignore the writers strike and inability to make any adjustments to the script. Or Into Darkness which had Lindelof pushing for Khan.

Yes, he gets to make decisions but he's not this all powerful person. He's a creator who also tries to collaborate.

First off: in Hollywood, the director is in charge of the creative direction of the movie. Full Stop. That's literally their job. So 99% of the time; if they disagree with the writer, the writer does as they're told, or gets replaced. The only way Lindelof gets his way is if JJ was on board with it. Simple as that.

Even leaving that aside; once is happenstance, twice is a coincidence, three times is enemy action a pattern, and there's been more than three examples of this kind of hollow, flashy "oh doesn't this look cool/mysterious" type of narratives with JJ as the only common factor.

Just to stress; I have nothing against the man personally, and I don't truck with people that engage in personal attacks over such things. My criticisms are entirely about his creative decisions, and storytelling tenancies. By all accounts he seems to be a genuinely lovely bloke and people seem to enjoy working with him. I wish him all the best (and to please stay away from any more franchises I enjoy.)

All that said; he literally made a TedTalk extolling the virtues of "The Mystery Box" as a narrative device, which IMO is the epitome of shallow, lazy storytelling. A perpetual carrot on a stick that drags the audience from beginning to end with the promise of something enticing . . . but there's no pay-off. It just swaps one superficially cool looking thing after another, hoping the audience won't catch on before the credits roll and realise they've been swindled. In short: it's a hustle.

Moreover it betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of the material he's engaging with. He clearly has no firm grip of the philosophical or mythological underpinnings of either Star Wars or Star Trek, let alone their subext, or primary influences . . . and these are things you really need to grasp in order to effectively tell a coherent story in the respective setting.

Honestly I think he chose the wrong medium to work it; he'd be better suited as a superhero comic book writer, because those books are notoriously perpetual second act narratives, with no expectation of a conclusion. He'd be great at it!

 

[fireproof78]

Even leaving that aside; once is happenstance, twice is a coincidence, three times is enemy action a pattern, and there's been more than three examples of this kind of hollow, flashy "oh doesn't this look cool/mysterious" type of narratives with JJ as the only common factor.

Possibly. But, then, I'm the odd one out here who dares to actually like JJ and his work.

Moreover it betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of the material he's engaging with. He clearly has no firm grip of the philosophical or mythological underpinnings of either Star Wars or Star Trek, let alone their subext, or primary influences . . . and these are things you really need to grasp in order to effectively tell a coherent story in the respective setting.

Clarity is in the eye of the beholder, it seems.

 

[Reverend]

Mostly he gave up on himself, which is consistent with both his temperament, and what he was trained.

You're confusing Luke at the end of RotJ for Luke at the beginning of tESB. It's called character growth for a reason.

Yes, but no at the same time. I never got the sense, post prequels, that the Jedi were something that had a good aspect after the screw ups. That I should be excited for the "Return of the Jedi" because that signals something good. I mean, yes, the fall of the Empire is good, but then what?

Then you get to not have a totalitarian dictator ruling the galaxy? I don't know, that seems like it doesn't need to justify itself any further.

As for the Jedi; there's a difference between institutional failure, and a failure of the philosophy itself. The problem with the Order is that it lost sight of it's purpose. It grew insular, and arrogant. I'm reasonably confident that there's nothing in the Jedi Code that promotes kowtowing to politicians at the expense of the people, engaging in dogmatic inflexibility, or compromising ethical standards in the name of expediency.

What Luke represented was a new beginning for the Jedi, not just picking back up where they left off. The redemption of Anakin is by far the best proof of this, because neither Kenobi or Yoda thought it was even possible. Luke proved them both wrong. He didn't just succeed them; he surpassed them . . . which makes his failure as depicted all the more unconvincing. That's not to say that he could never fail at anything again ever; but one really should think up something more believable and substantial than "I don't know man, I guess he sensed evil and freaked out or something?"

 

[fireproof78]

You're confusing Luke at the end of RotJ for Luke at the beginning of tESB. It's called character growth for a reason.

I'm not.

Then you get to not have a totalitarian dictator ruling the galaxy? I don't know, that seems like it doesn't need to justify itself any further.

As noted I think that is a positive. So...agreement?

What Luke represented was a new beginning for the Jedi, not just picking back up where they left off. The redemption of Anakin is by far the best proof of this, because neither Kenobi or Yoda thought it was even possible. Luke proved them both wrong. He didn't just succeed them; he surpassed them . . .

In some ways, yes. But he didn't know or learn how to move past failure.

"I don't know man, I guess he sensed evil and freaked out or something?"

Works for me.

But, that also rings very true for me from a personal standpoint. Without people around him to continue to mentor and support him a failure is going to land extremely painfully for Luke. He responds to the Dark Side as Jedi have in the past but then he let his nephew down and the whole galaxy.

Damn dude. Just walk it off...