Vic Fontaine almost ruined DS9.

[fireproof78]

I'm not so sure what you mean here.

A reference to TOS:
SPOCK: No such vessel listed. Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid=1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.
SPOCK: Your Earth was on the verge of a dark ages. Whole populations were being bombed out of existence. A group of criminals could have been dealt with far more efficiently than wasting one of their most advanced spaceships.
~Space Seed.

As I see it, there must be something wrong with those who hate music.

Why?

 

[at Quark's]

I don't think he 'ruined' DS9, as he didn't really interfere with the main storylines.

I could have done with less Vic material though, as I don't find that kind of music or that era particularly engaging. I did like how they made him somewhat useful in the grander DS9 story, though (e.g. helping Worf cope with the loss of his wife, Nog with the loss of his leg, etc.)

 

[Agony_Boothb]

So Berman hates music.

Yes, this is why the score in TNG goes from being bombastic in seasons 1 - 3 to very minimalist and monotonous from season 4. Berman is on record as wanting the music to basically be 'sonic wallpaper'. Thankfully he had less influence over DS9 and Voyager. But yes, he is also not a nice a man.

 

[Lynx]

Giving him less show time

I think they could have made more out of Vic, maybe a more important role on the station than just an entertainer. I wouldn't have mind seeing more of him.

A reference to TOS:
SPOCK: No such vessel listed. Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid=1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.
SPOCK: Your Earth was on the verge of a dark ages. Whole populations were being bombed out of existence. A group of criminals could have been dealt with far more efficiently than wasting one of their most advanced spaceships.
~Space Seed.

Personally I found that reference unnecessary for the TNG episode since the episode clearly did show that the world was fully functioning in the 21st century.

Why?

Since music is uplifting for the soul and makes people happy.
Those who don't like music must be really miserable and as I wrote before, the only one I've encountered who disliked music was a real creep.

I don't think he 'ruined' DS9, as he didn't really interfere with the main storylines.

I could have done with less Vic material though, as I don't find that kind of music or that era particularly engaging. I did like how they made him somewhat useful in the grander DS9 story, though (e.g. helping Worf cope with the loss of his wife, Nog with the loss of his leg, etc.)

As I wrote in a previous comment, I would have liked to see more of Vic, maybe in amore important role. I agree with yor comment here about Vic helping out when it came to situations like what happened to Worf and Nog.

Yes, this is why the score in TNG goes from being bombastic in seasons 1 - 3 to very minimalist and monotonous from season 4. Berman is on record as wanting the music to basically be 'sonic wallpaper'. Thankfully he had less influence over DS9 and Voyager. But yes, he is also not a nice a man.

As I see it, Bernan had too much influence on Voyager. he and Braga ruined it!
I'm not sure about his possible influence on DS9, at least he didn't mess it up like he did with Voyager.

However, I have to give Berman and Braga some credit when it came to creating TNG and the wonderful universe we got in series like TNG, DS9 and VOY.

Unfortunately, their role when it came to Voyager became destructive and they actually killed Star Trek when they decide to make a badly created retro series after Voyager. Star Trek died when ENT arrived and has been like a ghost ship without direction since then.

 

[fireproof78]

Those who don't like music must be really miserable and as I wrote before, the only one I've encountered who disliked music was a real creep.

That's a rather sad assumption.

Personally I found that reference unnecessary for the TNG episode since the episode clearly did show that the world was fully functioning in the 21st century.

So TNG trumps TOS?

 

[V'Lias]

I personally really like the character, and would have been fine with him showing up earlier in the series. As others have said, it gave the crew a place to take a short break from the death and destruction happening everywhere. I'm not old enough to be nostalgic for the style of music he sang, but I still enjoy it.

 

[DonIago]

While I think Vic was a decent character and I'm okay with what TPTB did with him, I guess I do also think it seems a little redundant to have a bar within a bar, and that it would have been more interesting to show something alien instead of yet another humancentric holoprogram.

But, it is what it is, and I can't say that my idea would necessarily have been any better, just different.

 

[Lynx]

That's a rather sad assumption.

Sad but true!

So TNG trumps TOS?

Yes!
And VOY trumps TNG since Henry Starlings dabbling with time obviously changed a lot of events which obviously never happened.

 

[fireproof78]

Sad but true!

Not in my experience.

Yes!
And VOY trumps TNG since Henry Starlings dabbling with time obviously changed a lot of events which obviously never happened.

Definitely not.

 

[Lynx]

Not in my experience.

But in mine. I haven't encountered any sympathetic person who dislike music, only one real unpleasant type.

All nice people I know likes music!

Definitely not.

Definitely yes!
With all due respect to TOS which is a series I like, some things in it has been developed and updated in THG, DS9 and VOY.

 

[fireproof78]

But in mine. I haven't encountered any sympathetic person who dislike music, only one real unpleasant type.

All nice people I know likes music!

This an assumption. A poor one and I don't get it. It's Mick Jagger saying he can't like a guy because he smokes different brand of cigarettes.

With all due respect to TOS which is a series I like, some things in it has been developed and updated in THG, DS9 and VOY.

But a change should be explained. None of those shows offer one. Otherwise Picard should be great because it updated things post TNG.

 

[Lynx]

This an assumption. A poor one and I don't get it. It's Mick Jagger saying he can't like a guy because he smokes different brand of cigarettes.

Mick Jagger sings that in "Satisfaction" but thhat's a song about someone who cant get satisfaction. He has never stated that about anyone he knows in real life.

But a change should be explained. None of those shows offer one. Otherwise Picard should be great because it updated things post TNG.

You're comparing apples and oranges here.

First of all, TNG, DS9 and VOY were constructive series while PIC is just boring and destructive, a typical 2020's serie.

Second, some things just have to be rewritten due to actual events in the Gray Universe.

As for TOS, I guess that the 1990's did seem far away in the 60's when Roddenberry came up with the Eugenic Wars and WWIII. But it seems a bit odd to imagine things which were supposed to have happened in an era when we were watching TNG, DS9 and VOY. I must state that I never heard about any Eugenic wars going on at that point.

Not to mention that i found Roddenberrys visions of the Eugenic Wars and WWIII somewhat naive to say the least, sort of "oh we just have had a few small conflicts which has devastated two thirds of the planet and made it almost impossible to live on with all the radiation so we are basically back to the stone age now. But we are rebuilding everytnig and are about to start with space journeys and colonize Mars too as well in a couple of years".

In reality, if the world had gome through the Eugenic Wars and WWIII in the late 90's and early 21th century it would only have been debris left of Earth and it would have taken about thousand years or so before civilisation would have reached a point where space travel and such may have been possible-if it ever would have been.

The old German SF series Raumpatrouille (Space Patrol) which was aired in Europe in 1966, three months before TOS started in the US had year 3000 as the time period for the very pre-TOS scenario in that series. A similar time scedule should have been more logical for TOS since we arent even close to colonise Mars in 2103.

I must add here that the creators of Raumpatrouille had no idea about a successful SF series being about to start a few months after Raumpatrouille started and Roddenberry possible had no knowledge about a German SF series being aired shortly before TOS started. It was just a coincidence that Raumpatrouille happened to come up with a more realistic time period for coming space adventures.

If Star Trek will keep the background stories about the Eugenic Wars and WWIII in its canon, it would actually be logical to push certain events forward for some centuries and also describe those events as not so destructive either due to the fact of how the world would look like if a REAL WWIII would happen.

Or also take the simple way out and assume that our friend Henry Starlings dabbling with time actually made that the Eugenic Wars and WWIII events never happened.

In fact, even some things stated in TNG and DS9 must be considered as obsolete too. Even if Ireland is more peaceful now than in the days when The High Ground was aired, we aren't even close to a unification of Ireland in 2024.

Not to mention that the Bell riots haven't happened and probably never will and that baseball is as popular as ever.

Correcting such issues and make Star Trek scenarios in our time in the Gray Universe more realistic is also more constructive than wiping out planets and messing up future scenarios in a way that they are recently doing in PIC and other lousy NuTrek series.

 

[fireproof78]

First of all, TNG, DS9 and VOY were constructive series while PIC is just boring and destructive, a typical 2020's serie.

Irrelevant. New information was added so this idea that it overwrites previous information, like TNG did to TOS.

Two, I never understood why TNG should be considered more authoritative over TOS. So, if information is lost, like different genres of music due to a world War, I see the explanation in Space Seed as valid.


But, we've moved far off topic. My apologies.

 

[Lynx]

Irrelevant. New information was added so this idea that it overwrites previous information, like TNG did to TOS.

Two, I never understood why TNG should be considered more authoritative over TOS. So, if information is lost, like different genres of music due to a world War, I see the explanation in Space Seed as valid.


But, we've moved far off topic. My apologies.

My apologies too. It was not my intention to move that much off-topic as we have.

But I must add one last thing: It might be necessary to change the location of Vulcan since the website Popular Science had an article about the fact that Vulcan doesnt' really exist, at least not near the star 40 Eridiani A.

 

[Crewman6]

I think Vic is best in small doses. Don't mind him showing up for a scene or two here and there, but I sure as hell didn't need an entire episode devoted to saving his fictitious bar from a mob takeover because the writers of Star Trek don't know how a "save game" function actually works.

Nor did I like the fact that he became an all-knowing, all-wise guru to half the crew and that everyone seemed so utterly, unrealistically taken by him.

I could have done with less Vic for sure, but I actually really liked "His Way" even though I expected to hate it and even though I was not at all a fan of Odo/Kira.

 

[kkt]

You've never had a game that only allowed you to save at certain points?

 

[AntonyF]

I'm coming in ten pages later so I'm sure it's all been said. But I have to say... I totally disagree.

I love Vic. Admittedly a bias to that sort of music. But he provided contrast and a point of social cohesion for the crew.

And for me I hold "In the Pale Moonlight" and "His Way" as the epitome of why DS9 is the greatest show ever. That it could go from the dark tones of what's arguably one of the best episodes of TV ever, and pivot to an episode of such different tone the next week and do it so well... *chef's kiss*