Did They Jump Too Far?

[Citiprime]

Honestly, I don't think it really mattered, since no matter what time period they chose, I don't think they wanted to world-build and think of the ramifications of what the difference between the 23rd century to the 24th century or 25th to the 32nd centuries would be, given all the stuff in canon (like transwarp drive, quantum slipstream, etc.) and what that would mean 800 years in the future.

It was more thinking: "Doesn't detached nacelles and everyone beaming around like Nightcrawler look cool!" as the level of thought being put into it.

To me, if they were going to do the time jump, it would have made more sense for them to end up in the Picard era (circa 25th century), since that would allow crossovers and some story synergy with all of the other Paramount+ series (barring SNW, even though not even that would be ruled out given that Lower Decks did it). But they were already starting from a 23rd century that didn't really match up and fit to the 23rd century of TOS that TNG and the rest of the Berman shows had preceded from.

But none of that really matters since, I don't think, the powers that be in charge of Discovery really worried about the overall picture of the Star Trek universe in that way. Or care about the bigger implications when their story decisions get in the way of their story choices (e.g., if the galaxy is still recovering from "The Burn," and the Federation controls the only major source of dilithium, how are the Breen building dreadnaughts and a threat?).

I re-watched the series finale last night and counted. Everything you need to know about what the showrunners saw as the priorities in their storytelling can be summed up by saying that we spend the first 20ish minutes of the episode with Burnham and Moll in an on-and-off fist fight that probably cost a significant part of the budget given the visual effects. But the decision to destroy the portal tech that this ENTIRE season has built to, and the debate about it among the command crew, lasts less than 5 minutes of screentime.

The show just didn't care about that side of Star Trek. And wouldn't have whether it was set in the 23rd, 25th, 32nd, or 42nd centuries.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Honestly, I don't think it really mattered, since no matter what time period they chose, I don't think they wanted to world-build and think of the ramifications of what the difference between the 23rd century to the 24th century or 25th to the 32nd centuries would be, given all the stuff in canon (like transwarp drive, quantum slipstream, etc.) and what that would mean 800 years in the future.

It was more thinking: "Doesn't detached nacelles and everyone beaming around like Nightcrawler look cool!" as the level of thought being put into it.

To me, if they were going to do the time jump, it would have made more sense for them to end up in the Picard era (circa 25th century), since that would allow crossovers and some story synergy with all of the other Paramount+ series (barring SNW, even though not even that would be ruled given that Lower Decks did it). But they were already starting from a 23rd century that didn't really match up and fit to the 23rd century of TOS that TNG and the rest of the Berman shows had preceded from.

But none of that really matters since, I don't think, the powers that be in charge of Discovery really worried about the overall picture of the Star Trek universe in that way. Or care about the bigger implications when their story decisions get in the way of their story choices (e.g., if the galaxy is still recovering from "The Burn," and the Federation controls the only major source of dilithium, how are the Breen building dreadnaughts and a threat?).

I re-watched the series finale last night and counted. Everything you need to know about what the showrunners saw as the priorities in their storytelling can be summed up by saying that we spend the first 20ish minutes of the episode with Burnham and Moll in an on-and-off fist fight that probably cost a significant part of the budget given the visual effects. But the decision to destroy the portal tech that this ENTIRE season has built to, and the debate about it among the command crew, lasts less than 5 minutes of screentime.

The show just didn't care about that side of Star Trek. And wouldn't have whether it was set in the 23rd, 25th, 32nd, or 42nd centuries.

I concur, that's where other people who do care about "World Building" & Ramifications should step in and do shows.

 

[Fateor]

What exactly were the big technological advancements we saw from THE VOYAGE HOME to TNG, besides ships being a bit faster?

The only thing that comes to mind are replicators. Before that they were food slots that pretty much served the same function, being instantly served the moment you request.

I was gonna bring up holodecks, but we see in TAS and DIS that they were already a thing, just not overused as the Berman era went about.

Does it matter?

Because we know at least a few of the technological advancements made between the 24th and 31st centuries. And none of them showed up in Discovery's 32nd century.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Does it matter?

Because we know at least a few of the technological advancements made between the 24th and 31st centuries. And none of them showed up in Discovery's 32nd century.

Which ones?

 

[Fateor]

Which ones?

Protowarp drives, switching away from phasers to sub-atomic disruptors, shields orders of magnitude more powerful then anything in use in the 24th century, the technology to make ships bigger on the inside.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Aside from the DR WHO bit, aren’t the rest essentially just souped up versions of what they already had? Even Janeway was able to deflect those subatomic disruptors, which may explain why they were ultimately abandoned after the time wars.

 

[Fateor]

Aside from the DR WHO bit, aren’t the rest essentially just souped up versions of what they already had? Even Janeway was able to deflect those subatomic disruptors, which may explain why they were ultimately abandoned after the time wars.

Proto-Warp was a new system entirely.

Also I forgot one, mobile holographic emitters.

And yes, the shields were a "souped up" version of what they already had. But we also know those don't exist in the 32nd century because 23rd century Discovery took a pair of 32nd century torpedo's to the hull and didn't instantly explode into space debris. Because that's the level of difference we would have been looking at with 29th century showings.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Proto-Warp was a new system entirely.

That’s from Prodigy, right?

Also I forgot one, mobile holographic emitters.

Is there anything in DISCO to contradict that? I only recall holographic characters appearing in one episode, and in an environment where they wouldn’t needed mobile emitters.

And yes, the shields were a "souped up" version of what they already had. But we also know those don't exist in the 32nd century because 23rd century Discovery took a pair of 32nd century torpedo's to the hull and didn't instantly explode into space debris. Because that's the level of difference we would have been looking at with 29th century showings.

That’s only assuming everyone has those kinds of torpedos, and not just the Federation.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Proto-Warp was a new system entirely.

Also I forgot one, mobile holographic emitters.

And yes, the shields were a "souped up" version of what they already had. But we also know those don't exist in the 32nd century because 23rd century Discovery took a pair of 32nd century torpedo's to the hull and didn't instantly explode into space debris. Because that's the level of difference we would have been looking at with 29th century showings.

In 'Future's end' a single torpedo from Voyager destroys the Aeon. While there's no on screen dialogue to confirm if the Aeon's shields were up, it probably shouldn't have been taken out by a weapon that was 500 years less advanced, given it was shown to have weapons capable of destroying a 24th century Starship from the sub-atomic level.

 

[Fateor]

That’s from Prodigy, right?

Yes?

Is there anything in DISCO to contradict that? I only recall holographic characters appearing in one episode, and in an environment where they wouldn’t needed mobile emitters.

There was that entire Gray needing a body story-line that would have been a lot easier to solve if they could have just stuck a mobile emitter on their hologram.

That’s only assuming everyone has those kinds of torpedos, and not just the Federation.

Earth was the Federation.

In 'Future's end' a single torpedo from Voyager destroys the Aeon. While there's no on screen dialogue to confirm if the Aeon's shields were up, it probably shouldn't have been taken out by a weapon that was 500 years less advanced, given it was shown to have weapons capable of destroying a 24th century Starship from the sub-atomic level.

If there was no dialogue to confirm the shields weren't up, the shields weren't up.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Yes?


There was that entire Gray needing a body story-line that would have been a lot easier to solve if they could have just stuck a mobile emitter on their hologram.


Earth was the Federation.



If there was no dialogue to confirm the shields weren't up, the shields weren't up.

Regardless, shields probably shouldn't matter given hull technology has also advanced by 500 years

 

[Fateor]

Regardless, shields probably shouldn't matter given hull technology has also advanced by 500 years

We have proof shield technology improved massively.

We don't have proof hull strength improved massively.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

We don't have proof hull strength improved massively.

We do, because by the 31st century Starfleet was using Neutronium in the hulls of their starships. Something that weas beyond the capabilities of 24th century Starfleet. So there was clearly a progression of hull materials as well. The Aeon may have not used Neutronium in their hulls, but If starfleet is using subatomic weaponry it's only logical to assume that other races also use it in the 29th century. Starfleet ships would need to have hull armour that can deflect that. It was clearly shown that 24th century federation hulls couldn't stand up to those type of weapons for very long. The notion that a 29th century starship can be taken out by a 24th century torpedo, seems.... odd.

We have proof shield technology improved massively.

You argued not too long ago that shield technology in the 32nd century hadn't advanced. So which is it?

 

[MakeshiftPython]

There was that entire Gray needing a body story-line that would have been a lot easier to solve if they could have just stuck a mobile emitter on their hologram.

Perhaps, but I can imagine having a physical body is a lot more appealing than a holographic one.

Earth was the Federation.

Not when Discovery was first visiting it. Earth had opted out of the Federation around that time.

If there was no dialogue to confirm the shields weren't up, the shields weren't up.

Fair enough.

 

[Rahul]

But none of that really matters since, I don't think, the powers that be in charge of Discovery really worried about the overall picture of the Star Trek universe in that way. Or care about the bigger implications when their story decisions get in the way of their story choices (e.g., if the galaxy is still recovering from "The Burn," and the Federation controls the only major source of dilithium, how are the Breen building dreadnaughts and a threat?).

I re-watched the series finale last night and counted. Everything you need to know about what the showrunners saw as the priorities in their storytelling can be summed up by saying that we spend the first 20ish minutes of the episode with Burnham and Moll in an on-and-off fist fight that probably cost a significant part of the budget given the visual effects. But the decision to destroy the portal tech that this ENTIRE season has built to, and the debate about it among the command crew, lasts less than 5 minutes of screentime.

The show just didn't care about that side of Star Trek. And wouldn't have whether it was set in the 23rd, 25th, 32nd, or 42nd centuries.

That's really the gist of it.
It is a science fiction world, dreamed up by people who don't care about worldbuilding or science in fiction.

Now that CAN work!
DS9 writers are notoriously character-over-worldbuilding focused.
However - the difference was for them a universe with rules was already set up (by TNG). They could just play with it, and try not to contradict the rules too much.

On DIS (&PIC) however the lack of thought was too obvious.

The most frustrating part is that it's the same failure, twice, by the same people - like "Into Darkness" which found a way to beam between planets & cure the dead, DIS the same introduced universe-shaking elements they have to forget the next movie/season, because otherwise the plot won't work anymore. Now that had happened in the past, too, but do that two-three-four times too many, and the universe becomes inconsistent.

In classic Trek, I knew a character couldn't be beamed out of danger, if the ship has the shields on. There was tension. On DIS/PIC/Kelvin some character will scream some fast paced words and beam the person out. And the only thought remaining for me is - why didn't they do that then a few minutes earlier, and only last minute? It feels just fake.

 

[fireproof78]

cure the dead,

Barely and there were Trek episodes doing the same thing. KIRK barely survived so that’s hardly a cure with no tension.


Death should have been cured long ago in Trek.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

In classic Trek, I knew a character couldn't be beamed out of danger, if the ship has the shields on. There was tension. On DIS/PIC/Kelvin some character will scream some fast paced words and beam the person out. And the only thought remaining for me is - why didn't they do that then a few minutes earlier, and only last minute? It feels just fake.

Ok sure. But how many times in classic trek did we see them make a gap in the shields to beam someone up? A lot. I think the notion that Classic Trek had tension all the time just isn't accurate. Classic trek did have tension, but it also had A LOT of lazy writing, particularly by the time Voyager came along. I mean if I had a dollar for every time ENsign Kim got locked out of ops control by someone who should have had no clue how to do it and Kim's response to stopping said person was 'I can't' I'd have at least $50 bucks.

Also Seven cured death back in Voyager, and everyone promptly ignored it after the episode.

 

[Fateor]

We do, because by the 31st century Starfleet was using Neutronium in the hulls of their starships. Something that weas beyond the capabilities of 24th century Starfleet. So there was clearly a progression of hull materials as well. The Aeon may have not used Neutronium in their hulls, but If starfleet is using subatomic weaponry it's only logical to assume that other races also use it in the 29th century. Starfleet ships would need to have hull armour that can deflect that. It was clearly shown that 24th century federation hulls couldn't stand up to those type of weapons for very long. The notion that a 29th century starship can be taken out by a 24th century torpedo, seems.... odd.

Actually they weren't.

The only neutronium mentioned was in power transfer fibers.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Actually they weren't.

The only neutronium mentioned was in power transfer fibers.

It's mentioned that Starfleet is using neutronium hulls in 'die trying'

 

[Fateor]

It's mentioned that Starfleet is using neutronium hulls in 'die trying'

No, it's not.

Detecting neutronium-alloy fibers.

Those-those used to be theoretical.

Some of these hulls are organic.

Some-some are completely comprised of holographic-containment walls.

This was the only mention of Neutronium in that episode.