Once the E approached the Guardian's planet they did begin being subjected to "waves of time", or whatever the episode calls them. Perhaps those are similar to the temporal wavefronts created by Annorax's timeship in "Year of Hell", and the E is being swept unknowingly into alternate (but perhaps very similar) timelines along the way.
City on the Edge of Forever-A question
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Once the E approached the Guardian's planet they did begin being subjected to "waves of time", or whatever the episode calls them. Perhaps those are similar to the temporal wavefronts created by Annorax's timeship in "Year of Hell", and the E is being swept unknowingly into alternate (but perhaps very similar) timelines along the way.
The Guardian can send out waves of temporal energy. The Enterprise was affected but the landing party wasn't OR the Enterprise wasn't affected but the landing party was.
If you have watched Everything Everywhere All at Once, you will understand that the antagonist feels that life is pointless in a many worlds universe. This is the main reason why writers don't adopt it as their go to explanation. Whether Edith lives or dies is just a question of which universe you happen to be in. The problem for our heroes is that they don't know how jump universes so they just work to make the future of the one they're in as similar as possible to the one they came from.
Can't be the movie, Dance, Fools, Dance since it was not released until February 21, 1931.
In TOS' history they already had orbital nuclear weapons by the 1960s and apparently nuclear warning signs in the 1930s... So Clark Gable could've been famous at an earlier time in TOS history.
The Guardian speaks in riddles. Its account of its origins are utterly self-contradictory. The Guardian says [http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/28.htm], "I answer as simply as your level of understanding makes possible." It's explicitly stated that what it says has been dumbed down. It's explicit that everything the Guardian says is to be filtered through that caveat.
In fairness, that's why I made the qualification of literally interpreting "All is as it was before." Maybe we're not supposed to interpret it literally.
But we do know the reason for the traffic accident, as it occurred in the events we saw. It was caused by the interactions of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy with Edith, and Kirk and Spock's deliberate refusal to save her. As indicated in the OP, if there was an original unaltered timeline, there would have to be another reason for her crossing the road that isn't in evidence. Spock's theory that "time is fluid, like a river, with currents, eddies, backwash" could mean that another reason would occur for Edith to get involved in a traffic accident.
But by the same token, Kirk and crew were drawn to the planet. It's like they were caught in a current that carried them there. Was it just to have an arbitrary, random adventure? Or was it because their actions were essential to the structure of the timeline, and it was literally necessary for them to be at that planet right then in order for existence to have the shape it was meant to?
YMMV.
For all your talk of being literal you seem to want to ignore Spock recording the "unaltered original timeline" that is evidently played out before McCoy jumps into the portal and alters it.
We do see the timeline is alterable in real-time from the protected crew's pov on the surface of the planet. If McCoy, Kirk and Spock were always meant to be the reason for Edith's death then in the unaltered original timeline she should have lived since no one has traveled back in time prior to Spock recording history.
So that would mean something else happened to cause her to die on that day according to the recorded "unaltered original timeline."
GUARDIAN: I answer as simply as your level of understanding makes possible.
...
GUARDIAN: Then you will be returned. It will be as though none of you had gone.
...
GUARDIAN: Then you will be returned. It will be as though none of you had gone.
YMMV.
EDIT:
Thinking about your argument a bit more, it would work best if McCoy jumped into the time portal and nothing changed from the crew's perspective at the Guardian. The Federation, etc all intact. The only reason would be for them to also enter the time portal is to save McCoy.
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How do you know that Spock recorded the unaltered timeline? He recorded a timeline in which Edith died, as displayed by a time machine. The possibility of alteration of the past by the future is presupposed.For all your talk of being literal you seem to want to ignore Spock recording the "unaltered original timeline" that is evidently played out before McCoy jumps into the portal and alters it.
We do see the timeline is alterable in real-time from the protected crew's pov on the surface of the planet. If McCoy, Kirk and Spock were always meant to be the reason for Edith's death then in the unaltered original timeline she should have lived since no one has traveled back in time prior to Spock recording history.
So that would mean something else happened to cause her to die on that day according to the recorded "unaltered original timeline."
GUARDIAN: I answer as simply as your level of understanding makes possible.
...
GUARDIAN: Then you will be returned. It will be as though none of you had gone.
YMMV.
EDIT:
Thinking about your argument a bit more, it would work best if McCoy jumped into the time portal and nothing changed from the crew's perspective at the Guardian. The Federation, etc all intact. The only reason would be for them to also enter the time portal is to save McCoy.
Technically, it would be a timeline unaltered by McCoy, Kirk and Spock. For the purposes of my argument, that is the "original unaltered timeline."
This is because they had not traveled to the past at that point and since the episode shows the timeline changing after McCoy steps through we know that Spock can only have recorded an unaltered timeline.Your argument works best if nothing changed when McCoy stepped into the past.
So we could say that we see these timelines:
1. In front of the Guardian: The original unaltered timeline that is recorded by Spock before McCoy steps through it.
2. In front of the Guardian: The McCoy timeline after he steps through it. Also outside of the planet.
3. In the past, Kirk and Spock arrive before McCoy arrives: Kirk, Spock timeline
4. In front of the Guardian: The timeline as if it they had never gone when Kirk, Spock and McCoy return.
YMMV.
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Again, that's an assumption, that need not be the case in the presence of a time machine. By definition, a time machine creates the possibility of the past being altered by the future. Just because Kirk, Spock, and McCoy haven't left to alter the past yet when the Enterprise arrives at the planet, that doesn't mean that they haven't already altered it. That's time machines for ya.Technically, it would be a timeline unaltered by McCoy, Kirk and Spock. For the purposes of my argument, that is the "original unaltered timeline."
I'd agree with you except that the Guardian time machine shows changes in real-time. So if Kirk and Spock altered it already then when McCoy goes back in time we should see nothing change. That isn't the case. That's this specific time machine for ya
This is precisely why the only explanation that makes logical sense is Many Worlds Theory. The past is in the past. You can't suddenly pop into existence because you go back in the present. You either were there or you weren't. It's already happened.I'd agree with you except that the Guardian time machine shows changes in real-time. So if Kirk and Spock altered it already then when McCoy goes back in time we should see nothing change. That isn't the case. That's this specific time machine for ya
Matter and energy cannot be destroyed or created from nothing. You can't create a universe by turning left instead of right.
The very confusing thing is that the future has also already happened. If it hadn't, it would be impossible to travel there and back. The future doesn't suddenly pop into existence the moment someone from the present goes there.
These problems mean that Many Worlds is the only possible explanation and one so convoluted in its idiosyncrasies that writers nearly always avoid it.
They are unchanged after McCoy goes through, on the planet. Why can't it be that the rest of the universe is changed, because Kirk and Spock still have a choice, they still have free will, to decide for themselves whether to go back? The mechanism of the past being altered is a two-step process. When McCoy went back, he opened the process. It's up to Kirk and Spock to complete it one way or the other. The Guardian is showing them what is at stake. If it was simply a question of the universe being changed just because McCoy went back, then Kirk and Spock would have been erased too, but that's not what happened.I'd agree with you except that the Guardian time machine shows changes in real-time. So if Kirk and Spock altered it already then when McCoy goes back in time we should see nothing change. That isn't the case. That's this specific time machine for ya
There's more evidence that it's destiny, and not just fixing a random accident, in Edith herself. In her lecture/presentation to the needy, Edith speaks of a future that resembles Kirk's and Spock's. She was going to give that speech anyway, without interference from Kirk, Spock, or McCoy. It's that future she dreams of and wants to bring about. It's why she's a peace activist. Whether she lives or dies is pivotal to making that future a reality, and it always was, before they even arrived at the Guardian's planet. Kirk's time and Edith's life, and death, were always intertwined.
Not necessary, because Kirk and Edith almost get hit by a car the first time they cross so it's not hard to infer an original timeline in which Edith dies crossing it alone.Maybe originally a different group of time travelers killed Edith.
(TPTB took the time, expense and effort to show the viewers that it was very dangerous to jaywalk across that street by including more traffic than a lone truck.)
Does the episode state that it takes place in1930? Because I watched and rewatched that episode for decades believing it took place sometime in “the 30s” but not explicitly in 1930.
Is there canonical evidence to place it in exactly 1930?
Is there canonical evidence to place it in exactly 1930?
It's in the dialogue.
MCCOY: The most common question to ask would be, where am I? I don't think I'll ask it.
EDITH: Why not?
MCCOY: The only possible answer would conclusively prove that I'm either unconscious or demented. This looks like old Earth, around 1920 or 25.
EDITH: Would you care to try for 30?
Even more than that:
KIRK: February 23rd, 1936. Six years from now. (reading below the headline FDR confers with slum area 'angel') The President and Edith Keeler conferred for some time today
(Then the whole thing goes up in flames.)
KIRK: How bad?
SPOCK: Bad enough.
KIRK: The President and Edith Keeler.
SPOCK: It would seem unlikely, Jim. A few moments ago, I read a 1930 newspaper article.
(Then the whole thing goes up in flames.)
KIRK: How bad?
SPOCK: Bad enough.
KIRK: The President and Edith Keeler.
SPOCK: It would seem unlikely, Jim. A few moments ago, I read a 1930 newspaper article.
The problem with this kind of theory is that in a galaxy where billions of people could be time travelling every second, just by going to high warp close to a gravity well, the universe would be rewritten every day and nobody would be any the wiser. It's ludicrous, and racist to believe that only one species of middling technological advancement can time travel and that's without considering the existence of time crystals.
It isn't, but that's the point I am making. The laws of physics are the same for everyone. If Spock can figure it out so can Opylomicus Crux on Eroticon VI. If you subscribe to the notion that time travellers are over-writing existing reality, the follow on question is, how many time travellers might there be? Since time travellers can travel from any point in time to any point in time, a single time traveller could create billions of changes in just one lifetime, just by breathing, or a single alteration that leads to billions of changes. What if Kirk had passed whatever lethal disease he gave to Odona, for example?
Where is it stated anywhere that only one species is time travelling?
So, the universe would be changing constantly for everyone without anyone except Guinan knowing. Classic example is the Borg time travelling. They could time travel outside the solar system to a pre-warp time if they were that desperate for some biological diversity. Federation technology is already inferior in the present.
Imagine the conspiracy theories! A time traveller stole the election!
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