Because fans love fan service.
Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 5x10 - "Life, Itself"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
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What type of fan service are we talking about here?
To me, this is Rise of Skywalker all over again.
The entire season was a series of fetch quests, where it's like a video game with the characters having to solve a puzzle or face a boss battle with the "dreadnaught" to move on to the next area, all in search of a macguffin that's destroyed minutes after it's found.
The Ark of the Covenant at least serves a function in the climax of Raiders. What does the Progenitor tech ultimately serve to do in this finale?
Also, a key difference between Discovery and Raiders. In Raiders, Indiana Jones want to pursue understanding the Ark, learning, exploring and, you know, maybe applying science to what the Ark is. And the US government seems ignorant for putting it in a warehouse instead.
But, in Discovery, Burnham destroys one of the most important discoveries in all of existence. And it's not like it's in any danger of being misused by anyone else, since she's specifically told ONLY she can use it. I just feel that's almost antithetical to the ethos of Star Trek, where the acquisition of knowledge, pushing the limits of human perception, and boldly going where no one has gone before is the entire point.
That's the theme of "All Good Things," where Q is trying to see if Picard is able to expand his boundaries and grow, and in doing so it says something about humanity's ability to be more. Contrast that with this where the door is slammed on this technology, and instead of it being something we can learn and grow from, it's portrayed as something us lowly humans aren't worthy of.
Picard Season 3 fansWhat type of fan service are we talking about here?
I mean, the Daniels reveal was pure, gooey, rich and sugar-glazed fanservice and I ate that up without apology.
Did they even destroy the technology?
I know Burnham claimed they did, but all they did was throw the portal into the event horizon of a black hole. And well, even 24th century Federation ships were able to escape intact from those.
And that's not even getting to the fact that it's a portal to another place. Destroying it won't actually destroy that other place. Just make it so you can't access it from that specific portal. And we saw that there are in fact a bunch of other portals inside leading to other planets.
We are not. Any more than Indy was consequential to the Ark.
Nope, just the Extra-Dimensional Gateway to get there.
Which nobody else seems to have a clue how to get there.
Short of finding another Portal to the same place, most people won't have any idea how to get there, much less that it exists since the whole thing is placed under secrecy of the "Red Directive".
Were they entire planets, or just small biomes in a small pocket dimension area for testing?
Who knows, not much details has been revealed about it.
This was an... okay finale.
I did like the change of the scenes in the title sequence... looks like it had pieces from every season. Reminds me of BABYLON 5's fifth season title sequence. Very fitting for the finale.
I absolutely hate the way the fight scenes were shot. It was headache inducing and was too shaky.
Why did Vance call Saru 'admiral' at the reception? The scene said "several weeks later"... did he get a promotion between his dealing with Tahal and the wedding?
Speaking of the wedding, I'm glad they got married in the finale. Saru and T'Rina deserved a happy ending.
It was pretty much telegraphed from the beginning of the season that the tech was going to be destroyed... that was easily seen a mile away. That is basically the theme for the entire season... 'I see it coming from a mile away'. With very few surprises. (I was surprised that L'ak stayed dead, and Kweijan doesn't get brought back... this actually helped elevate the episode a bit.)
The tech was interesting to look at, but considering how much of this season has been riding on 'the power' of this thing... it just seemed so overwhelmingly underwhelming. Starfleet has done more in the 23rd century with the promise of what this thing could do. It was just... all fluff and no substance. Which is DISCO in a nutshell. So at least the finale is consistent with the show.
I do like that it wasn't even the Progenitors' device... it was someone else who created it. It was an interesting twist, though I can see how it makes "The Chase" and what it was about feel lessened by this revelation.
Saru is just absolutely awesome... he was been a shining beacon from the start of the show, and is the one thing I will truly miss about DISCO. His dealings with Tahal was one of THE best scenes in the finale.
Rayner was excellent, as well. He is definitely the other thing I will miss. I'd love to see him again in the franchise.
Kovich... honestly, I'd rather he was kept mysterious. Him being Daniels... I love ENT, and I'm happy that it gets a reference and nod, but they pick the person who represents the WORST aspect of that series? My problem isn't Daniels... it was that damned Temporal Cold War. I hated it with a fiery passion, and if there was ONE THING I could get rid of in the franchise, it's that. I'd actually rather get rid of the Temporal Cold War and keep "Subspace Rhapsody" in the franchise, and I can't stand musicals. Nice prop collecting, though. (That isn't Sisko's baseball, by the way... it looked too new and unused. Considering his affinity for the past, it's just a regular one... maybe one he picked up from one of his time travel adventures.)
It was nice that Burnham and Book got a happy ending together, with a son as a newly made captain. (Also nice that Vance was still alive by that time... I heard him being mentioned by her in the shuttle.)
I actually wish they didn't bother with trying to make this tie in with "CALYPSO". It was a good one-off SHORT TREK that could have just been that... a one-off. It just felt tacked on for no good reason, and actually lessened the finale overall because of it.
At least this finale revolved around characters of the show it was ending, so it beats "THESE ARE THE VOYAGES...", which still remains the worst finale in the franchise by light years. Was it as good as TNG's or DS9's? Not even in the same galaxy... those two finales remain the gold standard of finales (for different reasons) in the franchise. I can hardly count the last episodes of TOS and TAS as 'finales' because they were abruptly ended... even ENT, as bad as it was, was able to write in a finale. But I suppose I could define this as better than those two. And was it as good as PICARD's? Most definitely not. So the question becomes... is this better than VOYAGER's finale, "ENDGAME"?
And the answer is a hard no. I just didn't feel it with this captain and crew. At least with VOY, I actually felt a connection with them. And it was done by showing us their connection and comraderie, not saying it with mere words. That was one of the fatal flaws of DISCO... it was about telling, not showing. For a show that supposedly prides itself on connections and bonds, its characters feel remarkably unconnected and not bonded with the audience.
The ending to the storyline of the season was okay, but it wasn't as good as season 4's ending. DEFINITELY superior to seasons 1-3, so at least it ranks second place as far as season finales go. And as for the season itself... it edges out season 3 as the best, but barely. Definitely better than seasons 1, 2, and 4. I just wanted DISCO's last season to flow well throughout and stick the landing... it didn't quite do either, but it didn't completely fail in both, either.
I give this a 5. (My first instinct was to give it a 4, but Saru and Rayner really move it up a notch for me.)
I did like the change of the scenes in the title sequence... looks like it had pieces from every season. Reminds me of BABYLON 5's fifth season title sequence. Very fitting for the finale.
I absolutely hate the way the fight scenes were shot. It was headache inducing and was too shaky.
Why did Vance call Saru 'admiral' at the reception? The scene said "several weeks later"... did he get a promotion between his dealing with Tahal and the wedding?
Speaking of the wedding, I'm glad they got married in the finale. Saru and T'Rina deserved a happy ending.
It was pretty much telegraphed from the beginning of the season that the tech was going to be destroyed... that was easily seen a mile away. That is basically the theme for the entire season... 'I see it coming from a mile away'. With very few surprises. (I was surprised that L'ak stayed dead, and Kweijan doesn't get brought back... this actually helped elevate the episode a bit.)
The tech was interesting to look at, but considering how much of this season has been riding on 'the power' of this thing... it just seemed so overwhelmingly underwhelming. Starfleet has done more in the 23rd century with the promise of what this thing could do. It was just... all fluff and no substance. Which is DISCO in a nutshell. So at least the finale is consistent with the show.
I do like that it wasn't even the Progenitors' device... it was someone else who created it. It was an interesting twist, though I can see how it makes "The Chase" and what it was about feel lessened by this revelation.
Saru is just absolutely awesome... he was been a shining beacon from the start of the show, and is the one thing I will truly miss about DISCO. His dealings with Tahal was one of THE best scenes in the finale.
Rayner was excellent, as well. He is definitely the other thing I will miss. I'd love to see him again in the franchise.
Kovich... honestly, I'd rather he was kept mysterious. Him being Daniels... I love ENT, and I'm happy that it gets a reference and nod, but they pick the person who represents the WORST aspect of that series? My problem isn't Daniels... it was that damned Temporal Cold War. I hated it with a fiery passion, and if there was ONE THING I could get rid of in the franchise, it's that. I'd actually rather get rid of the Temporal Cold War and keep "Subspace Rhapsody" in the franchise, and I can't stand musicals. Nice prop collecting, though. (That isn't Sisko's baseball, by the way... it looked too new and unused. Considering his affinity for the past, it's just a regular one... maybe one he picked up from one of his time travel adventures.)
It was nice that Burnham and Book got a happy ending together, with a son as a newly made captain. (Also nice that Vance was still alive by that time... I heard him being mentioned by her in the shuttle.)
I actually wish they didn't bother with trying to make this tie in with "CALYPSO". It was a good one-off SHORT TREK that could have just been that... a one-off. It just felt tacked on for no good reason, and actually lessened the finale overall because of it.
At least this finale revolved around characters of the show it was ending, so it beats "THESE ARE THE VOYAGES...", which still remains the worst finale in the franchise by light years. Was it as good as TNG's or DS9's? Not even in the same galaxy... those two finales remain the gold standard of finales (for different reasons) in the franchise. I can hardly count the last episodes of TOS and TAS as 'finales' because they were abruptly ended... even ENT, as bad as it was, was able to write in a finale. But I suppose I could define this as better than those two. And was it as good as PICARD's? Most definitely not. So the question becomes... is this better than VOYAGER's finale, "ENDGAME"?
And the answer is a hard no. I just didn't feel it with this captain and crew. At least with VOY, I actually felt a connection with them. And it was done by showing us their connection and comraderie, not saying it with mere words. That was one of the fatal flaws of DISCO... it was about telling, not showing. For a show that supposedly prides itself on connections and bonds, its characters feel remarkably unconnected and not bonded with the audience.
The ending to the storyline of the season was okay, but it wasn't as good as season 4's ending. DEFINITELY superior to seasons 1-3, so at least it ranks second place as far as season finales go. And as for the season itself... it edges out season 3 as the best, but barely. Definitely better than seasons 1, 2, and 4. I just wanted DISCO's last season to flow well throughout and stick the landing... it didn't quite do either, but it didn't completely fail in both, either.
I give this a 5. (My first instinct was to give it a 4, but Saru and Rayner really move it up a notch for me.)
Was hoping Kovich was Flint.. owell still squeeed over daniels
The Breen won't magically loose the scans they took of the portal just because Starfleet yells "Red Directive" really loud.
Nor will Mol forget everything she saw.
Who knows, hell, for all we actually know that entire place might have just been a Progenitor holodeck.
It's not like Burnham was really able to check after all.
Oded Fehr was about 53 when filming Discovery, so even with the future jump and knowing that Leonard McCoy canonically lived to at least 137, Vance wasn't in danger of dying of old age.
It's Star Trek, where the ENTIRE GALAXY, even the Klingons, Cardassians, Ferengi, Breen, etc. meekly follows suit when the Fed yells "No genetic engineering", "No synths" (to the point Riker and Troi can't even look outside the Fed to cure their son) and "No time travel" really loud.
How to improve the final scenes--
Burnham: I'll get straight to the point Zora, you are to remain in place, for centuries if necessary, until you find a, exact words here, FUTURE GUY named Craft.
(Burnham then winks at the camera and a banner at the bottom tells viewers to watch Star Trek: Enterprise, just in case the audience doesn't get it).
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Well, bless their hearts. They were trying so damn hard, but they couldn’t quite stick the landing.
I gave it a 3. Without the coda, it would’ve been a 2.
I gave it a 3. Without the coda, it would’ve been a 2.
Remember that when this episode was shot, they had no idea that Season 5 would be the final season. Callum Keith Rennie also stated that he would be part of the cast had Discovery got a 6th season. I think the intention was for Rayner to continue as First Officer and Saru would have been promoted to Admiral to keep them both in the series.
9/10 I think it mostly stuck the landing with the Progenitors. I think its good Burnham got rid of the portal. I think there would have been too much potential for someone to use the technology to Genesis Device all life the galaxy, or even the universe.
It would have been cooler if Kovich had been a host for the Dax symbiote or Data in a new body. Yeah it would have been much more controversial, but go big or go home.
I get that Discovery was Burnham centered, but it would it have been nice to see some of the older crew in the epilogue. It didn't do much for me besides setting up Calypso, while not really explaining why they ship was restored and sent away. I think the show should have just ended with Burnham and Book on the beach setting off for their new adventure.
It would have been cooler if Kovich had been a host for the Dax symbiote or Data in a new body. Yeah it would have been much more controversial, but go big or go home.
I get that Discovery was Burnham centered, but it would it have been nice to see some of the older crew in the epilogue. It didn't do much for me besides setting up Calypso, while not really explaining why they ship was restored and sent away. I think the show should have just ended with Burnham and Book on the beach setting off for their new adventure.
What's interesting to me is that by kind of retconning the Ancient Humanoids/Progenitors for this season, they both made them more powerful but also robbed their depiction in TNG's "The Chase" of some of its poignancy.
In their original depiction, the Progenitors just seeded planets. They're not implied to wield some amazing tech, and the episode has all of the non-Federation powers disappointed that their hopes of finding a great weapon is basically proven wrong. Beyond that, there's an empathy in Salome Jens's character when she says they explored space and "found no one else like themselves," asserting that they've seeded worlds in hopes of spreading life and hoping that the result will find the comfort in each other that they never had. And even "The Chase" gives a hint of hope that might happen, when the Romulan Commander muses with Picard about what it all means.
It's a hopeful message overall. That's totally turned on its head here, where it becomes this dangerous tech that's hyped up all season, would be an amazing scientific discovery, and in the end that legacy is basically thrown away.
It's baffling to me that they would want to revisit the Temporal Cold War.
It didn't work in its original form. It was a mess of a storyline that Enterprise could never make sense of. And the only reason they have to do the connection here is to give substance to the fetch quests as being connected to the machinations of Daniels.
Why Kovich just couldn't be Kovich and, I don't know, make Kovich an interesting character in his own right that had no connection to anything before, is beyond me. He's literally almost a blank slate you can do anything with and instead you do a memberberry to a character and storyline that was convoluted.
SISKO: That may be the most important thing to understand about humans. It is the unknown that defines our existence. We are constantly searching, not just for answers to our questions, but for new questions. We are explorers. We explore our lives day by day, and we explore the galaxy, trying to expand the boundaries of our knowledge. And that is why I am here. Not to conquer you with weapons, or with ideas. But to coexist... and learn.
The entire "knowledge is too dangerous" plot device is just a really tired Garden of Eden/Pandora's Box trope that seeks comfort in ignorance and that I think writers use when they don't want to actually deal with the consequences and realities of the story. And, instead, decide to chuck the MacGuffin into a black hole because actually dealing with it in an intelligent way is too hard.
I was probably going with a 5 for episode. I really did not like the conclusion to the storyline that was the entire season. It seemed pretty worthless to go through it all to be honest. Maybe if the resurrection of Book's planet via the root was attached (no pun intended) to Progenitor (or whoever made it) tech helping to grow it then at least it would have been a tiny bit of pay-off to have discovered the tech and completed the journey.
But just to find it so you push it into a blackhole that a scientist could have done centuries earlier when they put it there, is a pretty lame conclusion IMO.
The things that bumped up the score a tiny bit. I did like the payoff with Kovich being Daniels even if its fan-service. Who cares. It doesn't take anything away from someone who watched Discovery and never watched Enterprise.
I also kinda enjoyed the epilogue. It was very un-Star Trek like in that it wasn't retconned or changed (All Good Things).
The things I didn't like about the epilogue. I didn't like that the only character with their current appearance appearing from Discovery was Burnham. Yea, we got to see the characters as they 'were' on the Discovery bridge for a short scene, but it wasn't seeing what they became.
The thing I hated most. Why... WHY do you have to 'honor' Calypso and do this? Zora is a SENTIENT BEING who you are going to just dump in deep space and leave isolated without anyone for like a thousand years and then Calypso plays out and she still ends up alone at the end of it.
I would have just rather had Calypso be some 'alternate future' that doesn't happen. I was hoping that the final mission was going to be giving Zora some type of form or autonomy on her deciding where to go and what to do.
But just to find it so you push it into a blackhole that a scientist could have done centuries earlier when they put it there, is a pretty lame conclusion IMO.
The things that bumped up the score a tiny bit. I did like the payoff with Kovich being Daniels even if its fan-service. Who cares. It doesn't take anything away from someone who watched Discovery and never watched Enterprise.
I also kinda enjoyed the epilogue. It was very un-Star Trek like in that it wasn't retconned or changed (All Good Things).
The things I didn't like about the epilogue. I didn't like that the only character with their current appearance appearing from Discovery was Burnham. Yea, we got to see the characters as they 'were' on the Discovery bridge for a short scene, but it wasn't seeing what they became.
The thing I hated most. Why... WHY do you have to 'honor' Calypso and do this? Zora is a SENTIENT BEING who you are going to just dump in deep space and leave isolated without anyone for like a thousand years and then Calypso plays out and she still ends up alone at the end of it.
I would have just rather had Calypso be some 'alternate future' that doesn't happen. I was hoping that the final mission was going to be giving Zora some type of form or autonomy on her deciding where to go and what to do.
So...human? Because few humans enjoy actually exploring new knowledge.
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