It can be done. We know the character of Odo outlived the actor, even though Picard could've handled the changeling plot without mentioning him really.
Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 5x10 - "Life, Itself"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
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Aaaaaaand Discovery ends with a nonsensical wimper. Good riddance.
The episode itself wasn't bad, but given it was a series finale it was incredibly boring. Granted it wasn't originally going to be a series finale, but even as a season finale... snorefest.
There was little in the way of a twist. The plot was so oddly straightforward, especially given what it was about. "The Progenitors technology can create life" *insert Mystery Box* "Yep, that's what it does."
Oh. Um. Ok? Kind of anti-climactic. There were Pre-Progenitors? Ok? Cool? I guess?
Kovich is Daniels... ok? I agree with some sentiment, they missed out on having be The Doctor. He was always specifically "Dr. Kovich", that moment would have been neat with a "Just call me... Doctor." But whatever i'll accept Daniels.
The Calypso thing is bizarre and completely nonsensical. So... they reverted Discovery back to it's 23rd century state, dropped it off, and let it sit for another 1,000 years?
Just all in all a resounding "meh". It wasn't offensively bad. I'm going to put this below "These Are The Voyages"... i'm one of the few who don't hate that episode, and at least it was interesting. This episode was just a string of mostly boring nonsense.
I'm pretty sure i'm going to headcanon that Craft ends up time travelling with Discovery back to the 23rd century for some reason, which is why Discovery needed to look like that, and they change the timeline to reset it back to TOS so DSC, SNW and SFA become a branch timeline.
The episode itself wasn't bad, but given it was a series finale it was incredibly boring. Granted it wasn't originally going to be a series finale, but even as a season finale... snorefest.
There was little in the way of a twist. The plot was so oddly straightforward, especially given what it was about. "The Progenitors technology can create life" *insert Mystery Box* "Yep, that's what it does."
Oh. Um. Ok? Kind of anti-climactic. There were Pre-Progenitors? Ok? Cool? I guess?
Kovich is Daniels... ok? I agree with some sentiment, they missed out on having be The Doctor. He was always specifically "Dr. Kovich", that moment would have been neat with a "Just call me... Doctor." But whatever i'll accept Daniels.
The Calypso thing is bizarre and completely nonsensical. So... they reverted Discovery back to it's 23rd century state, dropped it off, and let it sit for another 1,000 years?
Just all in all a resounding "meh". It wasn't offensively bad. I'm going to put this below "These Are The Voyages"... i'm one of the few who don't hate that episode, and at least it was interesting. This episode was just a string of mostly boring nonsense.
I'm pretty sure i'm going to headcanon that Craft ends up time travelling with Discovery back to the 23rd century for some reason, which is why Discovery needed to look like that, and they change the timeline to reset it back to TOS so DSC, SNW and SFA become a branch timeline.
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Makes me wonder though when Starfleet Academy will be set now. will it be set after the finale in the 32nd century or will it be after the epilogue of the finale in the 33rd century?
That epilogue is the most Disco thing this show can do. I can already hear the haters scream “WHY IS THIS SHOW ABOUT MICHAEL?!?!” hahahahahaha
He’s set to command his own starship. He only pushed it back a day so he could be the one to take his mom to HQ.
Well, no additional Terran Empire Enterprise cameos but we did get Detmer and Owo back for a slo-mo, dialogue-free hugfest. So...yay?
Given how the show ends, it wouldn’t surprise me if they simply recast Tilly with an older actress…
The events in Discovery are canon to us the viewer, just unknown to most people in Starfleet since they are so highly classified.
Say what you will about the Daniels gimmick but at least Cronenberg's character got a payoff (even if that role really should belong to Matt Winston who last I checked is still alive and working)
Over at that other star franchise, the big name director they got for mysterious recurring appearances got killed off unceremoniously, he never even got a name, and I'm not sure Herzog's involvement amounted to anything more than stunt casting. Star Wars being Star Wars you'd have thought that all the tie-in material would've detailed this character's name, backstory, and have him appear in an issue of the canon Star Wars comics every other month by now, but strangely enough that hasn't happened yet.
Over at that other star franchise, the big name director they got for mysterious recurring appearances got killed off unceremoniously, he never even got a name, and I'm not sure Herzog's involvement amounted to anything more than stunt casting. Star Wars being Star Wars you'd have thought that all the tie-in material would've detailed this character's name, backstory, and have him appear in an issue of the canon Star Wars comics every other month by now, but strangely enough that hasn't happened yet.
It's not necessary consicering that Tilly is already like 15 years younger than her actress.
]
After the Temporal Wars, time travel was absolutely thoroughly banned. Kovich secretly and personally does it anyway when he sees the need, and also had his lifetimes of time travel experience as Daniels (and probably other names). Somewhere in the course of all that, he becomes aware that Craft will become important to the Federation in the 43rd century — perhaps a key figure in ending the war of that era — and so sets up what will become “Calypso”, “unrefitting” Discovery back to its original configuration (because it will matter that certain 32nd-century tech that Discovery-A had not be found by Craft, because that would have led to a future-Federation defeat/downfall).
“V’Draysh” became a term for the Federation among aliens without universal translators during the post-Burn period, then spread to become a fairly common term among Federation critics/opponents. It spreads further as such over the next thousand years, and over the long centuries the Federation itself hardens into a culture, “the V’Draysh”, one obsessed with the long-ago and more than a little imperialistic, leading to it moving in on independent worlds, who fight back. This is why Craft doesn’t immediately recognize Discovery as V’draysh; Zora herself probably doesn’t immediately know the connection. Because of the events of “Calypso”, Craft will eventually be instrumental in bringing an armistice, and to getting the V’Draysh to start changing back in the direction of Federation proper again — not least by introducing them to Zora.
EDIT: And you know, that suggests a spin-off I’d love to see: The newly-restructuring 43rd-century Federation/V’Draysh — for a long time more an aggressively self-enforced multispecies monoculture than an alliance of worlds —now (after a peace treaty and a serious internal shakeup) self-reflecting and reforming itself, trying to be better and fully aware that until recently, they had gone wrong and become aggressors. The epic of a former empire repudiating its ways and trying to be actively good once more, in the face of much skepticism. Star Trek: Renewal? Or Star Trek: Federation — because we’re actively trying to be The Federation again, and not the V’draysh.
My headcanon for “Calypso” vis a viz Discovery is this:
After the Temporal Wars, time travel was absolutely thoroughly banned. Kovich secretly and personally does it anyway when he sees the need, and also had his lifetimes of time travel experience as Daniels (and probably other names). Somewhere in the course of all that, he becomes aware that Craft will become important to the Federation in the 43rd century — perhaps a key figure in ending the war of that era — and so sets up what will become “Calypso”, “unrefitting” Discovery back to its original configuration (because it will matter that certain 32nd-century tech that Discovery-A had not be found by Craft, because that would have led to a future-Federation defeat/downfall).
“V’Draysh” became a term for the Federation among aliens without universal translators during the post-Burn period, then spread to become a fairly common term among Federation critics/opponents. It spreads further as such over the next thousand years, and over the long centuries the Federation itself hardens into a culture, “the V’Draysh”, one obsessed with the long-ago and more than a little imperialistic, leading to it moving in on independent worlds, who fight back. This is why Craft doesn’t immediately recognize Discovery as V’draysh; Zora herself probably doesn’t immediately know the connection. Because of the events of “Calypso”, Craft will eventually be instrumental in bringing an armistice, and to getting the V’Draysh to start changing back in the direction of Federation proper again — not least by introducing them to Zora.
EDIT: And you know, that suggests a spin-off I’d love to see: The newly-restructuring 43rd-century Federation/V’Draysh — for a long time more an aggressively self-enforced multispecies monoculture than an alliance of worlds —now (after a peace treaty and a serious internal shakeup) self-reflecting and reforming itself, trying to be better and fully aware that until recently, they had gone wrong and become aggressors. The epic of a former empire repudiating its ways and trying to be actively good once more, in the face of much skepticism. Star Trek: Renewal? Or Star Trek: Federation — because we’re actively trying to be The Federation again, and not the V’draysh.
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And this is just 140 years or less after Daniels as he appeared in ENT. So the Cronenberg appearance implies he assumed a new physical body after the Burn (possibly as a result of being injured in the disaster) and probably needed a new job after the Temporal Accords ended the Cold War and Wars and made his old profession obsolete.
If they cast Matt Winston in Season 3, everyone would have known, so the reveal (if planned at that time) wouldn't work at all.
How is that even possible? How many years have passed? Didn't Pelia say she had been teaching at the Academy for some ridiculous amount of time? How does a human become the longest tenured professor in a world with other races who live multiple centuries?
You know what? Good. The epilogue reinforced to me how horribly misused Sonequa Martin-Green was in the first two seasons. By giving her that one year jump at the beginning of S3, they made Michael more likable for me by actually channeling SMG’s strengths as an actress, and highlighting why she was a great pick to lead a series.
It was sort of the same revelation I had with Chris Pine in BEYOND where they discarded his dudebro traits in the first two films and wrote him as a more believable captain.
Or medical technology just kept advancing and now the life expectancy of a human is somewhere in the 200+ range instead of the 130 or so of the TNG era.
Or he spent some time on Baku.
Or a good portion of those years were spent outside of normal space/time so he didn't age.
Or he's not actually human even though he looks it.
The original Academy shut down, it's obvious they are just talking about the new Academy's history.
Which is why that line made me giggle so much. Because that's the equivalent of saying she had been there since it's re-opening phrased in a way to try to make it sound a lot more impressive then it actually is.
Gave it a 9! My highest rating all season.
It was pretty good, although for having such a high score, there were a few things that felt unsatisfying at the end.
The good was the overall Trek themes of both diversity and exploring strange new worlds. The Progenitor environment was interesting and well done. And I loved hearing their motivation for creating new life forms! Perfect for Star Trek!
The crew were all given something important to do. There was good tension and drama throughout. Burnham face a lot and did a credible job. Although, inexplicably stupid turning her back on Moll when trying to hear Book.
Lots of good stuff, but not perfect. Some negatives.
The Progenitor technology was covered in only a token sense and then discarded. I was fearing that would be the case. After all this build up, there was little pay off in this aspect.
Stamets and Culbur were underutilized. They were there and did some important stuff, but mostly token. A few nice scenes between them. But not satisfactory for a final episode. Culbur's few meaningful scenes felt tacked on. "I don't know why, but I must go!" Only to recite a frequency number. That barely touches the surface of what he's been through.
I'm not sure why they did the scenes with older Michael and Book? Didn't really need those because they left it good with the wedding scenes. But if they were going to do that, why not look at Culber and Stamets?
No ISS or Owo and Detmer--except for the tacked on memory scene near the end where they were clearly NDs (non-dialogs) appearing for the cheapest possible fee. For her "family," the memory scene on Discovery was a letdown.
That seemed cruel to Zora to abandon her in deep space for so long. A form of torture. Especially after determining she was a sentient being with her own rights. WTF?!
I'm still processing this episode. I enjoyed it more than all the others this season, yet some unsatisfying aspects to it.
It was pretty good, although for having such a high score, there were a few things that felt unsatisfying at the end.
The good was the overall Trek themes of both diversity and exploring strange new worlds. The Progenitor environment was interesting and well done. And I loved hearing their motivation for creating new life forms! Perfect for Star Trek!
The crew were all given something important to do. There was good tension and drama throughout. Burnham face a lot and did a credible job. Although, inexplicably stupid turning her back on Moll when trying to hear Book.
Lots of good stuff, but not perfect. Some negatives.
The Progenitor technology was covered in only a token sense and then discarded. I was fearing that would be the case. After all this build up, there was little pay off in this aspect.
Stamets and Culbur were underutilized. They were there and did some important stuff, but mostly token. A few nice scenes between them. But not satisfactory for a final episode. Culbur's few meaningful scenes felt tacked on. "I don't know why, but I must go!" Only to recite a frequency number. That barely touches the surface of what he's been through.
I'm not sure why they did the scenes with older Michael and Book? Didn't really need those because they left it good with the wedding scenes. But if they were going to do that, why not look at Culber and Stamets?
No ISS or Owo and Detmer--except for the tacked on memory scene near the end where they were clearly NDs (non-dialogs) appearing for the cheapest possible fee. For her "family," the memory scene on Discovery was a letdown.
That seemed cruel to Zora to abandon her in deep space for so long. A form of torture. Especially after determining she was a sentient being with her own rights. WTF?!
I'm still processing this episode. I enjoyed it more than all the others this season, yet some unsatisfying aspects to it.
If the story isn't satisfying without some kind of a gimmick reveal, then it probably isn't a good story to begin with. Say what you will about the Star Wars prequels, but everyone knew going in what was going to happen to the main character.
I think that's why Star Trek Into Darkness fell apart really to a lot of fans, because it literally entirely hinged on a gimmick reveal.
Daniels outright said he was "mostly" human in Enterprise so Kovich's long lifespan can probably be handwaved away that way.
That’s kind of overstating things. I never got the sense that Kovich’s identity was crucial to the plot. It’s just something we find out in the end rather than the middle of a second act.
Same way Grudge is still around. It’s 1200 years from now, and 700 years from previous Trek eras; medical tech has radically improved and people (and cats) routinely live multiple times as long as they would have in our era.
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