Garrett Wang

[Oddish]

And I still have to give NCIS some credit. The series is a weak copy of what it was when Gibbs was in charge but it's still watchable. Not to mention that they never killed off Gibbs.

Mark Harmon put in... 18 years, was it? A lot of other NCIS actors had long journeys, too: Michael Weatherly, Pauley Perette, and both the ME's. It's pretty impressive.

Voyager would have been perfect for a bunch of recurring character due to what the series was about, a ship lost in space where the crew became a community where they had to trust each other and cooperate.

Indeed, it's almost ridiculous that it was anything else. Janeway called the ship a family, but it didn't feel like one. Just the main characters and a bunch of extras who weren't even allowed to talk. They even had a human version of Morn.

Lynxverse rules!
I have restored Kes and I will restore Garak and Gowron as well!

Good. Having Gowron end the way he did was appalling.

That's true. But I'm sure that they knew exactly what they were doing in the "Kes case" and the "Harry Kim case".

During VOY's run, I have little doubt that the treatment of Harry was a deliberate action. But do understand that when I point out that he's never returned and wonder if the forces that conspired to humiliate him then are still at work... it's like most conspiracy theories: plausible, but unlikely.

I know that there are many who disagree with me when I state that they did what they did on purpose to "show the finger" to certain fans.

Again, not getting involved in the matter of Kes. At your suggestion and others, I skipped "that episode", so not possible to make an educated guess.

But given their insulting response to the people who demanded to know why didn't Harry have a box on his chair? It shows a pattern of behavior.

Garret can redeem Garret.

Garret is not Harry.

Harry is a loser and that is his story.

Fixing Harry is betraying the essential Harriness of Harry.

That's just it... if they had wanted to make Harry a problem child character, fine and dandy. TNG had the troubled but capable Ro Laren, the brilliant but neurotic Reg Barclay. And VOY had templates for such characters, shown in "Good Shepherd", not to mention the psychotic Suder and the snake in the grass Seska.

But that wasn't Harry. Harry was played as smart, athletic, competent, and personable. He was described by both Janeway and Chakotay as an outstanding officer. That's why his lack of promotion seems like gaslighting rather than a deserved fate for an officer who never should have graduated from the academy.

Believe me, that's too bad. The journey of a troubled young man trying to discover his place in the universe would have been an interesting addition to the show.

It's great to see Harry lose in new and spectacular ways, and maybe he leveled up eventually, but I doubt that that happened before he started going gray.

Let's be realistic... Harry was probably putting on lieutenant's pips mere days after Voyager's return home (if not hours). That's why it's essential to the "eternal ensign" crowd that he never make a post-VOY appearance.

The only show where it was plausible that he remain an ensign is "Lower Decks", due to the fact that it plays undeserved demotions for laughs. And while it's theoretically possible that we'll see him pop up unexpectedly there during the final season (I think that given the choice, Garrett would have wanted to be on that one), I kind of have my doubts. Especially since they already had a bunch of promotion hijinks with the main characters.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Mark Harmon put in... 18 years, was it? A lot of other NCIS actors had long journeys, too: Michael Weatherly, Pauley Perette, and both the ME's. It's pretty impressive.



Indeed, it's almost ridiculous that it was anything else. Janeway called the ship a family, but it didn't feel like one. Just the main characters and a bunch of extras who weren't even allowed to talk. They even had a human version of Morn.



Good. Having Gowron end the way he did was appalling.



During VOY's run, I have little doubt that the treatment of Harry was a deliberate action. But do understand that when I point out that he's never returned and wonder if the forces that conspired to humiliate him then are still at work... it's like most conspiracy theories: plausible, but unlikely.



Again, not getting involved in the matter of Kes. At your suggestion and others, I skipped "that episode", so not possible to make an educated guess.

But given their insulting response to the people who demanded to know why didn't Harry have a box on his chair? It shows a pattern of behavior.



That's just it... if they had wanted to make Harry a problem child character, fine and dandy. TNG had the troubled but capable Ro Laren, the brilliant but neurotic Reg Barclay. And VOY had templates for such characters, shown in "Good Shepherd", not to mention the psychotic Suder and the snake in the grass Seska.

But that wasn't Harry. Harry was played as smart, athletic, competent, and personable. He was described by both Janeway and Chakotay as an outstanding officer. That's why his lack of promotion seems like gaslighting rather than a deserved fate for an officer who never should have graduated from the academy.

Believe me, that's too bad. The journey of a troubled young man trying to discover his place in the universe would have been an interesting addition to the show.



Let's be realistic... Harry was probably putting on lieutenant's pips mere days after Voyager's return home (if not hours). That's why it's essential to the "eternal ensign" crowd that he never make a post-VOY appearance.

The only show where it was plausible that he remain an ensign is "Lower Decks", due to the fact that it plays undeserved demotions for laughs. And while it's theoretically possible that we'll see him pop up unexpectedly there during the final season (I think that given the choice, Garrett would have wanted to be on that one), I kind of have my doubts. Especially since they already had a bunch of promotion hijinks with the main characters.

In episode 2 or three Tom says to Harry that he wants to root his way through the female crew. He wants to bang sixty women, including the Captain in the first month, just in case they are prematurely rescued and all these fish escape from his barrel.

Harry passes on the opportunity to have intercourse with 3 score females, the same 3 score females that Tom, just finished with, not that they are not their own people in their own right nor are they defined by what they shamefully let the helmboy do to them, because he (Harry) has a Girlfriend, who thinks that he is dead.

Tom dismisses this friend's cowardice by revealing that he has five girlfriends back on the homeworld, so Harry is just being a winey baby man.

If you have ever seen Happy Days, Tom is Fonzie, and Harry is Richie.

One is a hood, and the other is a nerd.

In reality it was Garret repeatedly showing up to work in the same clothes stinking of beer and glitter with a conquest he pounded out in the parking lot in front of the studio, sitting back with a visitors pass watching her celebrity one night stand fight space aliens and dropping lines, who is the irresponsible bad boy, which is why Wang was almost fired, and had to apologize for 7000 days.

 

[fireproof78]

Believe me, that's too bad. The journey of a troubled young man trying to discover his place in the universe would have been an interesting addition to the show

That was Tom. Sort of.

 

[Oddish]

Harry passes on the opportunity to have intercourse with 3 score females, the same 3 score females that Tom, just finished with, not that they are not their own people in their own right nor are they defined by what they shamefully let the helmboy do to them, because he (Harry) has a Girlfriend, who thinks that he is dead.

Tom dismisses this cowardice by revealing that he has Three girlfriends back on the homeworld, so Harry is just being a winey baby man.

I think Harry has more romantic relationships (or at least potential ones) over the course of the series than Tom. Including the wrong twin, a hologram who wasn't a hologram, a hologram who was a hologram (and turned into a cow to prove it), a Borg ice princess, an ensign turned zombie, an alien terrorist, his best friend's kid who never existed, and a lady who gives him the space clap.

In reality it was Garret repeatedly showing up to work in the same clothes stinking of beer and glitter with a conquest he pounded out in the parking lot in front of the studio, sitting back with a visitors pass watching her celebrity one night stand fight space aliens and dropping lines, who is the irresponsible bad boy, which is why Wang was almost fired, and had to apologize for 7000 days.

I never said he was blameless and pure. Just that their "punishment" for him was ridiculous.

Honestly, given that Harry and Kes and Chakotay's actors were all difficult to deal with, maybe they should have just sacked all three of them. By having main characters actually die, the stakes would go up. And TOS, TNG, and ENT all did fine with seven main cast members.

That was Tom. Sort of.

Good point. But it works as a plot. And given that Harry was young and inexperienced, they could have done something else with him. But they made an active decision to have him stagnate. Which was stupid. Develop him or eliminate him, but don't just have him sit there.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I think Harry has more romantic relationships (or at least potential ones) over the course of the series than Tom. Including the wrong twin, a hologram who wasn't a hologram, a hologram who was a hologram (and turned into a cow to prove it), a Borg ice princess, an ensign turned zombie, an alien terrorist, his best friend's kid who never existed, and a lady who gives him the space clap.



I never said he was blameless and pure. Just that their "punishment" for him was ridiculous.

Honestly, given that Harry and Kes and Chakotay's actors were all difficult to deal with, maybe they should have just sacked all three of them. By having main characters actually die, the stakes would go up. And TOS, TNG, and ENT all did fine with seven main cast members.



Good point. But it works as a plot. And given that Harry was young and inexperienced, they could have done something else with him. But they made an active decision to have him stagnate. Which was stupid. Develop him or eliminate him, but don't just have him sit there.

Tom Married two women and had two babies.

Yes, Harry also got married in one of those timelines and had a child, but that universe died, and in the real universe, not the one where Libby thinks that he is the other Harry, every relationship he tried was a false start, aborted or doomed.

I think the worst was Harry in Timeless when he's all "Jessie's Girl" about Chakotay's girl. Every moment of that episode: Harry's body language was "Stop %%king him, he's too old for you Tessa, but not me, look at how young I am! look at me! Look at me how you look at that old man!".

She probably turned down a pass from Harry every time Chakotay spent three hours in the space toilet.

 

[fireproof78]

Good point. But it works as a plot. And given that Harry was young and inexperienced, they could have done something else with him. But they made an active decision to have him stagnate. Which was stupid. Develop him or eliminate him, but don't just have him sit there.

Exactly. Tom, for all of his other faults, is a perfect example of growing a character, and often in strange ways. He had a class in biochemistry? Field medic! Knows all about the 20th century period of history? Absolutely, so ask his advice on what's needed for the period.

Easily could have spread some of that out to Harry.

 

[Lynx]

Mark Harmon put in... 18 years, was it? A lot of other NCIS actors had long journeys, too: Michael Weatherly, Pauley Perette, and both the ME's. It's pretty impressive.

Yes indeed. Unfortunately the show started to decline when Mark Harmon left.
But still watchable, I do watch it from time to time but not as much as I used to.

Indeed, it's almost ridiculous that it was anything else. Janeway called the ship a family, but it didn't feel like one. Just the main characters and a bunch of extras who weren't even allowed to talk. They even had a human version of Morn.

Ayala?

Good. Having Gowron end the way he did was appalling.

I agree. Not to mention that restoring Gowron was easier than restoring Kes.
The "Gowron" who Worf killed was a Cardassian agent with altered apparance (like Seska) who had taken Gowron's place in order to create tension and split between the Klingons and the Federation. he was not a shapeshifter because a shapeshifter would have revealed himself by turning to sah when killed.

The real Gowron had been kidnapped and placed in a Cardassian prison. In the turmoil at the end of the war, he managed to escape.

During VOY's run, I have little doubt that the treatment of Harry was a deliberate action. But do understand that when I point out that he's never returned and wonder if the forces that conspired to humiliate him then are still at work... it's like most conspiracy theories: plausible, but unlikely.

I find it plausible considering all that with Wang being hold outside everything Star Trek related which could redeem harry in some way.

Again, not getting involved in the matter of Kes. At your suggestion and others, I skipped "that episode", so not possible to make an educated guess.

Well, call it a "division of duties".
I handle the Kes case, you handle the Harry Kim case.

But given their insulting response to the people who demanded to know why didn't Harry have a box on his chair? It shows a pattern of behavior.

Yes, it does.

 

[Farscape One]

Ayala actually spoke a couple lines. We never saw Morn speak one word, though he was a Chatty Cathy according to everyone.

Yet Morn seemed to be better developed than some of VOYAGER's main cast.

Proof that it's very possible to develop a character with little effort.

 

[Oddish]

Yes, Harry also got married in one of those timelines and had a child, but that universe died, and in the real universe, not the one where Libby thinks that he is the other Harry, every relationship he tried was a false start, aborted or doomed.

That is true. A YouTube video I watched recently put both Worf and O'Brien ahead of Harry in the suffering department, but I think Harry beats both of them. Only he has been triple tapped in terms of physical suffering, bad luck in love, AND lack of career advancement!

She probably turned down a pass from Harry every time Chakotay spent three hours in the space toilet.

Ughhh. Didn't need THAT image in my head.

Exactly. Tom, for all of his other faults, is a perfect example of growing a character, and often in strange ways. He had a class in biochemistry? Field medic! Knows all about the 20th century period of history? Absolutely, so ask his advice on what's needed for the period.

Easily could have spread some of that out to Harry.

And should have.

Yes indeed. Unfortunately the show started to decline when Mark Harmon left.

Well, there's only one Leroy Jethro Gibbs.

Ayala?

Yup.

The "Gowron" who Worf killed was a Cardassian agent with altered apparance (like Seska) who had taken Gowron's place in order to create tension and split between the Klingons and the Federation. he was not a shapeshifter because a shapeshifter would have revealed himself by turning to sah when killed.

The real Gowron had been kidnapped and placed in a Cardassian prison. In the turmoil at the end of the war, he managed to escape.

Nice. Gowron deserved better than to be eliminated so ignominiously. And Martok deserved better than to be "installed" as Worf's puppet dictator.

I find it plausible considering all that with Wang being hold outside everything Star Trek related which could redeem harry in some way.

All good conspiracy theories are plausible. The best ones are the ones that, crazy as they outwardly seem, really start to make sense when you think about them!

Well, call it a "division of duties".
I handle the Kes case, you handle the Harry Kim case.

Agreed.

 

[Oddish]

Ayala actually spoke a couple lines. We never saw Morn speak one word, though he was a Chatty Cathy according to everyone.

Wasn't an exact match. But both characters were ubiquitous, but silent. Mostly so, in Ayala's case.

Yet Morn seemed to be better developed than some of VOYAGER's main cast.

Proof that it's very possible to develop a character with little effort.

They even made an episode about him!

 

[Lynx]

That is true. A YouTube video I watched recently put both Worf and O'Brien ahead of Harry in the suffering department, but I think Harry beats both of them. Only he has been triple tapped in terms of physical suffering, bad luck in love, AND lack of career advancement!

When it comes to suffering and the "whipping boy" syndrome, O'Brien was close to be that, maybe Worf too on some occasions.

But those characters, especially O'Brien were strong enough as characters to bear that burden. despite his sufferings in some episodes, O'Brien never came out as a wimp. he was always the reliable chief who could fix almost everything, a reliable buddy and good character.

In Harry's case, the suffering was over-done, both in the series and the books and besides that, he was just "young inexperienced Ensign Harry Kim.

If they had developed him to be mre like he is in some of the early Voyager books, a computer whizz, importannt member of the senior staff, good sidekick to Tom in some adventures and even a bit of an action hero in some adventures too and developed the character from those premises, the reasult would have been much better.

Well, there's only one Leroy Jethro Gibbs.

Yes, indeed!

Nice. Gowron deserved better than to be eliminated so ignominiously. And Martok deserved better than to be "installed" as Worf's puppet dictator.

Exactly my point too!

Gowron was the perfect leader for the Klingon Empire. A somewhat unreliable, sceaming and manipulative guy who you never know if he was gouing to join your side or not. As such, he would be a perfect character in all stories which involves the federation and the Klingon Empire.

Not to mention that he has a certain personality ehich makes him interesting too.

Martok was a great warrior in his role as Klingon warlord during the conflict against the Dominion and good for similar stories in which the Federation and the Klingon Empire would cooperate or even have a conflict with each other. But he isn't the "leader type", a little too one-dimensional for that.

And unfortunately he did look as Worf's puppet on some occasions.

All good conspiracy theories are plausible. The best ones are the ones that, crazy as they outwardly seem, really start to make sense when you think about them!

The interesting things with many conspiracy theories in these days are that many of them turn out to be true.
And when it comes to the topics discussed in this thread, there are many pieces of the jigsaw puzzle which fits together.

Agreed.

Wasn't an exact match. But both characters were ubiquitous, but silent. Mostly so, in Ayala's case.

Ayala is one of the characters who could have been a good recurriong characters on Voyager, considering that he did seem to be a guy with many talents. It wouldn't have been a problem to come up with some abilities who made him useful and interesting, like skills in engineering, computers, combat or whatsoever.

They even made an episode about him!

Yes, and that episode was great!

 

[Oddish]

Martok was a great warrior in his role as Klingon warlord during the conflict against the Dominion and good for similar stories in which the Federation and the Klingon Empire would cooperate or even have a conflict with each other. But he isn't the "leader type", a little too one-dimensional for that.

And Martok knew that. That's why he absolutely refused to challenge Gowron.

If you know the story of Oedipus, you know that it's basically the story of people causing bad things to happen by trying to prevent them. Same thing here... Gowron sees Martok (who just wants to command his armies and stay as far away from politics as possible) as a threat to his position and tries to eliminate that threat... and loses his position to Martok as a result.

If they had developed him to be more like he is in some of the early Voyager books, a computer whizz, important member of the senior staff, good sidekick to Tom in some adventures and even a bit of an action hero in some adventures too and developed the character from those premises, the result would have been much better.

Well of course! Harry would have been an easy character for any halfway competent writer to develop. But, well... this explains it:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/do-...te-for-voyager-a-quiz-in-25-questions.315529/

O'Brien never came out as a wimp. he was always the reliable chief who could fix almost everything, a reliable buddy and good character.

Yeah. Maybe that was why he went through so much crap... Colm Meaney played him as relatable, and easy to sympathize with.

Thankfully, it remains my head canon to this day that Bashir was able to reduce the memories he suffered in "Hard Time" to a blur. If tequila can do it, so can 24th century medicine.

The interesting things with many conspiracy theories in these days are that many of them turn out to be true.
And when it comes to the topics discussed in this thread, there are many pieces of the jigsaw puzzle which fits together.

In general, I do believe that Harry's lack of development or promotion was a deliberate and malevolent action by VOY's showrunners. I have serious doubts that Kurtzman's crew chose to pick up where they left off... but their stubborn refusal to have the character return does make one wonder...

 

[DonIago]

In general, I do believe that Harry's lack of development or promotion was a deliberate and malevolent action by VOY's showrunners. I have serious doubts that Kurtzman's crew chose to pick up where they left off... but their stubborn refusal to have the character return does make one wonder...

"Stubborn refusal?"

 

[Oddish]

Well, what would you call it?

 

[Lynx]

And Martok knew that. That's why he absolutely refused to challenge Gowron.

If you know the story of Oedipus, you know that it's basically the story of people causing bad things to happen by trying to prevent them. Same thing here... Gowron sees Martok (who just wants to command his armies and stay as far away from politics as possible) as a threat to his position and tries to eliminate that threat... and loses his position to Martok as a result.

Yes, I know the Oedipus story and similar things have happened often in history. So your assumption is correct.
However, the Lynxverse's version why Gowron acted the way he did is a little different.

Well of course! Harry would have been an easy character for any halfway competent writer to develop. But, well... this explains it:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/do-...te-for-voyager-a-quiz-in-25-questions.315529/

That quiz is great!

Yeah. Maybe that was why he went through so much crap... Colm Meaney played him as relatable, and easy to sympathize with.

Thankfully, it remains my head canon to this day that Bashir was able to reduce the memories he suffered in "Hard Time" to a blur. If tequila can do it, so can 24th century medicine.

I agree with your head canon here because it's believeable and logical. They must have developed some medicine which could help to surpress memories of such traumas as O'Brien faced in that good and very touching episode. Otherwise there would be many ex-Starfleet members locked up in mental institutions here and there.

In general, I do believe that Harry's lack of development or promotion was a deliberate and malevolent action by VOY's showrunners. I have serious doubts that Kurtzman's crew chose to pick up where they left off... but their stubborn refusal to have the character return does make one wonder...

For reasons which you probably are aware of, I do believe in your statement about VOY's showrunners.
When it comes to Kurtzmans crew, I can see two possible options:

1. The showrunners of VOY have long tentacles which is a reason why few actors who have been mistreated dare to speak out about them.
2. Recent showrunners or even authors of books are very reluctant when it comes to correcting errors from previous series. They wouldn't even dare to think about restoring characters like Kes and Gowron in the way I have done. In Harry's case, they see the constant scenario with "young, unexperienced whipping boy Harry Kim" as uncorrectable, something that has always been and will always be or are just too lazy to think about changing it.

I'm not aware of Wesley Crusher's possible fate in recent series or books. Is he still goofing around in subspace with The Traveler or has anyone came up with some better option, like re-instating him in Starfleet?
Maybe I have another task to add to the Lynxverse retauration of mishandled characters.

 

[fireproof78]

'm not aware of Wesley Crusher's possible fate in recent series or books. Is he still goofing around in subspace with The Traveler or has anyone came up with some better option, like re-instating him in Starfleet?

He has joined an organization as part of the Travelers, and linked to other organizations in Trek history.

 

[Oddish]

However, the Lynxverse's version why Gowron acted the way he did is a little different.

Good.

Speaking of characters you care about, @Lynx , have you read "I'm Crazy for Q"? I think you'll like Kes's ending.
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/im-crazy-for-q-a-story-in-eleven-endings.311180/

I agree with your head canon here because it's believeable and logical.

Yeah. Given how Bashir ended "The Quickening", I don't think he'd just leave his best mate in the lurch. He wouldn't rest until that gross injustice was undone.

I don't yet have a head canon as to what happened to the Agrathi... but I'll come up with something suitably dreadful.

They must have developed some medicine which could help to surpress memories of such traumas as O'Brien faced in that good and very touching episode. Otherwise there would be many ex-Starfleet members locked up in mental institutions here and there.

Picard among them. I'm sure that Locutus thing really messed with him.

Funny how he keeps his position after Borgification, Cardassian torture, and 40 subjective years on a pre-warp planet... but when he's shorter and has hair, out he goes!

The showrunners of VOY have long tentacles which is a reason why few actors who have been mistreated dare to speak out about them.

Are any of them still involved in Trek? I think Berman and Braga were the ones responsible for Harry's non-promotion during VOY's run, and AFAIK, they're long gone.

Again, I think that the reason for Harry not returning is probably something more innocent than a 30-year vendetta... but circumstances do make you wonder.

Recent showrunners or even authors of books are very reluctant when it comes to correcting errors from previous series. They wouldn't even dare to think about restoring characters like Kes and Gowron in the way I have done. In Harry's case, they see the constant scenario with "young, unexperienced whipping boy Harry Kim" as uncorrectable, something that has always been and will always be or are just too lazy to think about changing it.

Every book and video game that I'm aware of has given Harry a promotion. Ironically, about the only person to propose a "Harry the eternal ensign" resolution is Garrett himself... maybe he was trying to write himself into "Lower Decks".

We know what should happen to Harry... it happened in ST Online, Janeway's autobiography, the deleted "Endgame" timeline, and his proposed PIC appearance. We just can't seen to get it over the threshold of canon.

I'm not aware of Wesley Crusher's possible fate in recent series or books. Is he still goofing around in subspace with The Traveler or has anyone came up with some better option, like re-instating him in Starfleet?

He has joined an organization as part of the Travelers, and linked to other organizations in Trek history.

Correct... I didn't really liked that plot twist when it aired, but since PIC S2, it's grown on me. A bit.

Maybe I have another task to add to the Lynxverse retauration of mishandled characters.

Whatever pleases you. I don't call it the Oddishverse, but I've started my own alternative timeline, which seeks to give Seska, Tuvix, and Carey a fairer shake. As well as the best ship in Voyager.

 

[fireproof78]

Recent showrunners or even authors of books are very reluctant when it comes to correcting errors from previous series.

That implies they regard them as errors. We are unique here in that we think (and overthink) on plot points that these writers have moved past on and do not regard as important.

 

[DonIago]

Well, what would you call it?

I wouldn't call it anything because there's no evidence of intent. For all we know, TPTB have invited Wang back and he's been the one to turn them down. Alternately, there were scheduling conflicts. You're claiming something was malicious while presenting no evidence to support your claim.

Honestly, the harping on Kim not being promoted is, if anything, moving me more toward thinking the whole situation is kind of hilarious and caring less about it, because I can't see why anyone should be so invested in it.

 

[Oddish]

You're claiming something was malicious while presenting no evidence to support your claim.

I'm not claiming, I'm theorizing. While I do believe that Harry's non-promotion during VOY was done with ill intent, I seriously doubt it's still going on. But it's fun to speculate.

Honestly, the harping on Kim not being promoted is, if anything, moving me more toward thinking the whole situation is kind of hilarious and caring less about it, because I can't see why anyone should be so invested in it.

That's not harping, this is!

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