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When did Discovery JUMP the Shark?

As far as my personal interest in Discovery is concerned, the turning point was probably around the end of season 2 and early in season 3. Until then, I felt the show is uneven, but still has the potential to become good, once the creators figure out what works and what doesn't. After all, TNG and DS9 also had uneven first and second seasons, but then found their style.

But either Discovery found a style that's just not my cup of tea, or it hasn't really found a style. My impression is that none of the characters is convincing or likable, but the characters are contrived and contradictory, and real character development was replaced by a huge wave of superficial melodrama.

And there were a couple of things that really stood out: When that half-robot character was killed and the entire episode was just a huge melodrama about how Burnham and the crew mourn and miss that character, although *we had hardly ever seen this character before, so we had no emotional connection to that character whatsoever*. I was seriously asking myself if the authors were attempting to insult the audience?

Or when mirror Georgiou, an irredeemable genocidal Kelpian-eater of Adolf Hitler or Khan Singh caliber, who had constantly insulted everybody else, was suddenly mourned when she was gone -- What was I supposed to think? Imagine they had shown Kira mourning Gul Dukat's departure ...

But the apotheosis of silly, for me, was that whole "Red Angel" business, Burnham, compared to whom even Counselor Troi appears like a stable stoicist, depicted as a kind of holy figure with angel wings saving the universe, in a manner that would have been even campy by comic book standards.

By now, the show has dropped to the last spot #11 on my personal ranking of all Star Trek shows.

But by all means, if you like the show, good for you. Maybe it's just not my cup of tea.
 
That's a completely poor comparison. Kira had a reason to hate Dukat. Georgiou had done nothing to Burnham and crew.

Okay, that's right. But that doesn't mean Georgiou was any less evil. Shedding tears for a genocidal mass murderer was just way too much for my taste. One more reason why the show lost me.
 
Okay, that's right. But that doesn't mean Georgiou was any less evil. Shedding tears for a genocidal mass murderer was just way too much for my taste. One more reason why the show lost me.
See, this is were Trek fans lose me. Respect other cultures, yet refuse to acknowledge that how Gergiou was taught was completely different to our morality.

Something Something own point of view.
 
Are you being serious?
Yes to a degree. Unless morality is universal across timelines and universes.

Why is Georgiou expected to know and adhere to our good and evil?

People compare Georgiou to Hitler a lot, but the difference is I know how Hitler was taught. I know what moral system he grew up with.
 
Yes to a degree. Unless morality is universal across timelines and universes.

Why is Georgiou expected to know and adhere to our good and evil?

People compare Georgiou to Hitler a lot, but the difference is I know how Hitler was taught. I know what moral system he grew up with.

Okay this could become a philosophical debate about the pros and cons of universalism, but I don't really think an imo mediocre tv show warrants that. Personally, I believe some morals are indeed universal, like that murder is wrong, and violating them can't be justified by "oh, it's just a different culture".

For me, it's just sloppy writing when a mass murderer character is somehow turned into a harmless mascot for no good reason (or just because the writers feel it's convenient for the moment and/or didn't care what was shown in previous episodes), and nobody ever asks what his/her victims feel about that ever again. I mean, she literally *ate* Kelpians. At least a show that's written that way fails to entertain me.

Contrast that to the great dramas about guilt and responsibility, when DS9 was at its best in episodes such as "Duet" or "Wrongs Darker than Death or Night", or even SNW's "Under the Cloak of War".
 
and violating them can't be justified by "oh, it's just a different culture".
What about different universes?

For me, it's just sloppy writing when a mass murderer character is somehow turned into a harmless mascot for no good reason (or just because the writers feel it's convenient
Ok, I can see that. Though, Georgiou never seemed to Bex a mascot or even harmless. She got weighed and measured and slowly changed by learning what she never learned before.
 
What about different universes?

I'm pretty sure that when I watched these episodes, I was in THIS universe.

Ok, I can see that. Though, Georgiou never seemed to Bex a mascot or even harmless. She got weighed and measured and slowly changed by learning what she never learned before.

I don't mean to spoil the series for you, when this didn't bother you and you managed to enjoy DSC despite this aspect, good for you -- means you had a better time than I had.

I can just say that I didn't see anything on screen that convinced me that mirror Georgiou had changed in a way that qualifies her responsibility for her past deeds, if such a thing is even possible. And even if she had, I wonder why they didn't show what her former victims think of that. My guess is that it didn't even cross the minds of the writers, which is by far the saddest explanation.
 
I'm pretty sure that when I watched these episodes, I was in THIS universe.
True. But you don't learn morality by just jumping universes.

I can just say that I didn't see anything on screen that convinced me that mirror Georgiou had changed in a way that qualifies her responsibility for her past deeds, if such a thing is even possible.
I'm sad that Terra Firma didn't do more for you.
 
True. But you don't learn morality by just jumping universes.

I guess I'm just not open for the idea that somehow, the "Starfleet morality" isn't valid anymore in a parallel universe, as previous parallel universe episodes, from TOS "Mirror, Mirror" up to all the DS9 episodes, made clear that the Terran Empire is not a good thing. The TOS and DS9 crews from "our side" clearly had a position of moral superiority over their totalitarian counterparts. And this for good reason, imo.

I'm sad that Terra Firma didn't do more for you.

Yes, I really wanted to enjoy the show... it's not that I *want* to dislike parts of the franchise or so. DSC is just not my cup of tea, but that's okay, the franchise is large enough so that there's something for each of us to enjoy. We don't need to like it for the same reasons.
 
Ironically, I think VOY got better once Michael Piller stepped down. I think it got worse when Jeri Taylor stepped down. Then I thought it improved again in Season 7 with Ken Biller as Showrunner. So, I preferred VOY seasons under Jeri Taylor or Ken Biller over VOY seasons under Michael Piller or Brannon Braga.
VGR gets a little weird as Piller was effectively gone for the second half of season 1 to do LEGEND (worth checking out for the John de Lancie and Richard Dean Anderson, but I think it holds up far less than say BRISCO COUNTY JR). When he came back, Piller had the right idea trying to introduce loose arcs, unfortunately he was blind to just how badly the Kazon were executed. Had he gotten this part down better (or even was like, look, we need to track crew deaths, and explain how to replace the shuttles / torpedoes), VGR might have avoided accumulating some of the problems that effectively metastasized by the time Ron Moore ran into them.

With VOY, I have to disagree. Season 3 was just so much meh... it started off great and ended great (first 6 and last 6 produced). But so much of the middle was... so meh. Season 7 was very bland and mediocre, and season 6... I have never seen a season in the franchise that was so schizophrenic in terms of quality. (Great one week, terrible the next, decent for 2 more, horrible for 3, good, bad, awesome, blah, terrible, awesome, meh, abysmal, great, mediocre, bad.) I wonder if the reason season 6 was all over the place was because it was the first time in 7 years that only one STAR TREK show was on the air. I think the best were seasons 2, 4, and 5, with 1 being very solid.
Kenneth Biller left in a huff when Ron Moore was brought in, and then it took a while for him to come back aboard. Great writers like Michael Taylor or Bryan Fuller got stuck writing teleplays based on bad story concepts. They also added a few writers mid season when freelancers would manage to turn in decent episodes. Now that I think of it, VGR season 6 might have been the most unstable Berman era season since Piller joined TNG season 3.
 
I guess I'm just not open for the idea that somehow, the "Starfleet morality" isn't valid anymore in a parallel universe, as previous parallel universe episodes, from TOS "Mirror, Mirror" up to all the DS9 episodes, made clear that the Terran Empire is not a good thing. The TOS and DS9 crews from "our side" clearly had a position of moral superiority over their totalitarian counterparts. And this for good reason, imo.
Which, I think is missing the point. To me the Terran Empire is not a good thing, but no one was there to tech them that until characters from our world came in and showed them a better way. The only way people can become better is if they know there is a better way to become.

As Quark said, "Over time you begin to like it."

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Yes, I really wanted to enjoy the show... it's not that I *want* to dislike parts of the franchise or so. DSC is just not my cup of tea, but that's okay, the franchise is large enough so that there's something for each of us to enjoy. We don't need to like it for the same reasons.
I've been in this boat since The Next Generation. There is no demand to like it. I just think that Discovery builds upon themes from previous Trek in a different way that invites discussion of our human nature, what does it mean to be moral and how do we impart that morality to our fellow humans. Because, in my opinion, if we are not willing to challenge that discussion or to examine why we believe in our morality and not explore what makes us moral and how to teach that then human will never grow.

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I just find it unrealistic that people from 800 years ago could solve all our problems. So, the jump to the 32nd century ends up feeling wrong. I thought it would be more of them existing on the fringes of known space having more personal adventures, not saving a future Federation every season.

Of course, it is a mileage may vary type of situation.
 
Well, that is the other problem, from my perspective. I simply don't find it entertaining. I wouldn't care if the Federation President was a pink elephant, if I found it entertaining.
Yeah, I get that. Believability is a non-issue to me in Trek with lines like "thought is the basis of reality. "

If it wasn't entertaining it be off.
 
Yeah, I get that. Believability is a non-issue to me in Trek with lines like "thought is the basis of reality. "

Believability can sometimes be a barrier to being able to get the entertainment value out of something. It was the same for me with Enterprise season three. The setup is so hard to take seriously that it is constantly in one's mind and it pretty much ruined it. At least, for me.
 
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