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When did Discovery JUMP the Shark?

I didn’t realise the actor that plays Grey is trans. What’s the point of having gender reassignment surgery just to dress, speak and act like the gender you already were?

If he's paid for it himself he can do what he likes as long as his demeanour doesn't harm the cause of other trans people.

I have more issues with his general unpleasantness in real life, not even compensated for by any acting ability (at least Blu is immensely likeable and they can act).

Ian Alexander has "ACAB" as part of his Twitter handle. I find that statement repulsive.

2 weeks ago a group of unarmed police officers in London ran toward a machete-wielding maniac who had already effectively killed a 14 year old boy. They put themselves in harms way, saved the lives of strangers, and the female officer nearly lost her arm, may not be able to fully use her arm again, and both her and the Inspector may not be able to continue their careers.

ACAB? I would like to see Ian Alexander run toward danger to save the life of a stranger. I think not.
 
Char Kais post showed me that the writers were more experienced with young adult shows.

After STD S2 I wanted to know why STD does not appeal to me in any way and why I can't stand any of the characters.

It can't just be Alex Kurtzman's fault alone. He wrote a bunch of silly movies with nonsensical plots that I don't like (Star Trek 2009, Into Darkness, The Amazing Spider-Man 2, The Legend of Zorro, The Mummy, Michael Bay's "The Island" and Transformers 1 / 2) but I never was so annoyed by the charters.

I looked up the IMDB profiles of the STD writers who were listed on the ST Wiki at that time.
Very soon a pattern emerged and I had my answer.


This is a trailer for the TV show "Revenge". It's a "The Count of Monte Cristo" inspired melodramatic soap opera that got a "Campy TV Show of the Year" award from the "Gay and Lesbian Entertainment Critics Association".
Six STD writes worked on this show:
Aaron Harberts, Gretchen J. Berg, Jay Beattie, Dan Dworkin, Sean Cochran, Ted Sullivan
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

This is "The CW" show "Reign". Four STD writes worked on this show:
Aaron Harberts, Gretchen J. Berg, Bo Yeon Kim, Erika Lippoldt
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

"Mercy", four STD writes worked on this show:
Gretchen J. Berg, Jay Beattie, Dan Dworkin, Sean Cochran
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Then there are writers who worked on "GCB" (4), "Desperate Housewives" (2), and sexy teen/YA vampire romance drama shows "The Vampire Diaries"/"The Originals".


Just by watching these trailers I know these shows aren't made for me. That's wouldn't be a problem, but the character types, character interactions and story types from these shows have infiltrated and taken over Star Trek.
Secret Hideout had more writers from Desperate fucking Housewives working on STD than writers who worked on previous Star Trek shows.
We got the worst of all worlds in STD and SNW in regards to storytelling:
Thanks to Alex Kurtzman we have Michael Bay style nonsensical, silly action that is nothing more than digital noise.
JJ Abrams mystery boxes and treasure hunts (fetch quests).
And YA melodrama.


So who should trek appeal to?

To the people Star Trek has always appealed to. People who like Campbellian SciFi and not Hegelian, postmodern magical thinking SciFi (Ursula K. Le Guin).

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/are-we-all-too-cynical-for-star-trek
Are We All Too Cynical for Star Trek?

The atmosphere and philosophy of the shows is much less comfortable with the maxims of professionalism and duty that were foundational to pre-2017 Star Trek media.

Setting aside the cartoons, the characters in the core three modern shows—Discovery, Picard, and Strange New Worlds—are less concerned with professionalism and duty and more concerned with personal morality, authenticity, and teamwork.

In the Deep Space Nine episode “The Ship” (Season 5), Capt. Benjamin Sisko, trapped in a downed enemy warship with his senior staff, puts a stop to their bickering under pressure by shouting at them:

I said that’s enough! You’re Starfleet officers, now start acting like it! . . . Now I know it’s hot, we’re filthy, tired, and we’ve got ten isotons of explosives going off outside, but we will never get out of this if we don’t pull it together and start to act like professionals!

Embarrassed and chastened, his crew gets back to work.

Compare this with the Discovery episode “All is Possible” (Season 4), in which Lt. Sylvia Tilly crashes on a desolate moon while training cadets. To arrange rescue, she must, like Sisko, coax the bickering crew into cooperating. Her first decision is to make the cadets introduce themselves, icebreaker style, as if at an HR-mandated company retreat. As they face various obstacles, Tilly repeatedly encourages the cadets to work together as a team—but she never chastises them.

Note the differences here: Old-school Sisko reminds his crew of the expectations he has for them and unsubtly critiques their behavior as unbecoming of Starfleet officers. He acknowledges their difficulties (“I know it’s hot. . .”), but leaves no doubt that he expects them to perform their duties as professionals anyway. New-school Tilly motivates her command by making it clear that she sees and hears their concerns, and encourages them to work together by seeing the value in their unique life experiences.

Part of it probably has to do with the other material that Star Trek writers are drawing from. The ’60s and ’90s-era Trek writers either served in the military themselves or were drawing from science fiction written by people who had. (Gene Roddenberry, the creator of Star Trek, and many of the great science-fiction authors of the mid-twentieth century, including Robert Heinlein, Arthur Clarke, Isaac Asimov, Frank Herbert, and Walter M. Miller Jr., each served in some capacity in the World War II-era U.S. or British armed forces.) Obviously, modern Trek writers are far less likely to have served—but are far more likely to have worked in twenty-first-century corporate America, which has a rather different set of norms and concepts of professionalism.

But more fundamentally, popular science fiction today—as written by authors like N.K. Jemisin, Martha Wells, and Tamsyn Muir—is more likely to be concerned with questions of identity and combating imperialism. It is also more likely to be written from marginalized perspectives, which have valid reasons to distrust institutions and authority.

A leader who expects you to behave in a certain way and yells at you when you don’t is less likely to be understood as a benevolent-if-demanding aspirational figure than as one of the many petty tyrants who run storefronts around the country—more Edward Jellico or Terence Fletcher than Benjamin Sisko or Raymond Holt.

Besides, nobody likes any of America’s institutions anymore (and for all that Star Trek is ostensibly international, it is a fundamentally American franchise).

What are professionalism and duty if not the suppression of individual quirks in service of some larger goal or institution? Duty overrides individual desires or assessments of right and wrong. If I say that it is my duty to do something, then I am saying that I have no choice in the matter, that the obligations I have accepted and commitments I have made override my personal desires entirely. I have abdicated my agency in service of some other power, and I must trust this other power more than even my own judgment. This is not to suggest that older Star Trek believed that blindly following orders was correct—the first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth, after all. Since at least “The Doomsday Machine,” originally broadcast in 1967, Star Trek has understood that the command structure is made up of fallible humans who must occasionally be disobeyed in the service of the greater good.

But older Trek nevertheless believed in duty, because it believed that Starfleet was a fundamentally good institution, even if it may be failed by individual bad or misguided actors. It elevated Starfleet’s regulations and codes of conduct almost to the status of holy writ. Sure, ’90s-era captains frequently bent these regulations when necessary, but always in service of Starfleet’s higher goals. To violate the Prime Directive (Starfleet’s first, standing order not to interfere with the natural development of any society) was the closest thing to blasphemy a Starfleet officer could imagine—and when they did, it was usually to serve a higher purpose, as when Capt. Picard revealed himself to a less-developed civilization for the sole purpose of convincing them he wasn’t a god.
 
"Jumping the shark" implies that show was actually good at some point, which it wasn't.

The entire direction of this show was wrong from the outset.

Nothing exemplifies this better than looking at the writers.

From the showrunners (Bryan Fuller, Alex Kurtzman, Michelle Paradise) to the staff writers.
The vast majority of writers are a bunch of "The CW" shows, romantic drama, comedy drama (Desperate Housewives, GCB), soap opera, lesbian romance, young adult sexy vampire teen romance-drama (Vampire Diaries, The Originals) writers.
They had two writers who worked on Star Trek before (Joe Menosky [TNG Darmok, First Contact, Legacy, The Chase, Conundrum, Suspicions, Time's Arrow, VOY Year of Hell, Distant Origin, The Voyager Conspiracy, Blink of an Eye, Tinker Tenor Doctor Spy, Dragon's Teeth, Future's End, Scorpion, Dark Frontier, Equinox, Unimatrix Zero, ditched after one episode in S1], Kirsten Beyer [Books, not TV]) and a few writers who worked on other JJ Abrams IPs (which isn't exactly a praise).


But here is a scene that really grinded my gears.
It's pure cringe, and definitively, without a shadow of doubt, proofed to me that show show is going to be bad:

Stuttering special needs silly Tilly.

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This scene is the perfect distillation of what is wrong with the direction of modern Star Trek, it's sensibilities, and whom it's trying to appeal to.
Amazing. Everything you just said is wrong.
 
After STD S2 I wanted to know why STD does not appeal to me in any way and why I can't stand any of the characters.

It can't just be Alex Kurtzman's fault alone. He wrote a bunch of silly movies with nonsensical plots that I don't like (Star Trek 2009, Into Darkness, The Amazing Spider-Man 2, The Legend of Zorro, The Mummy, Michael Bay's "The Island" and Transformers 1 / 2) but I never was so annoyed by the charters.

I looked up the IMDB profiles of the STD writers who were listed on the ST Wiki at that time.
Very soon a pattern emerged and I had my answer.


This is a trailer for the TV show "Revenge". It's a "The Count of Monte Cristo" inspired melodramatic soap opera that got a "Campy TV Show of the Year" award from the "Gay and Lesbian Entertainment Critics Association".
Six STD writes worked on this show:
Aaron Harberts, Gretchen J. Berg, Jay Beattie, Dan Dworkin, Sean Cochran, Ted Sullivan
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

This is "The CW" show "Reign". Four STD writes worked on this show:
Aaron Harberts, Gretchen J. Berg, Bo Yeon Kim, Erika Lippoldt
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

"Mercy", four STD writes worked on this show:
Gretchen J. Berg, Jay Beattie, Dan Dworkin, Sean Cochran
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Then there are writers who worked on "GCB" (4), "Desperate Housewives" (2), and sexy teen/YA vampire romance drama shows "The Vampire Diaries"/"The Originals".


Just by watching these trailers I know these shows aren't made for me. That's wouldn't be a problem, but the character types, character interactions and story types from these shows have infiltrated and taken over Star Trek.
Secret Hideout had more writers from Desperate fucking Housewives working on STD than writers who worked on previous Star Trek shows.
We got the worst of all worlds in STD and SNW in regards to storytelling:
Thanks to Alex Kurtzman we have Michael Bay style nonsensical, silly action that is nothing more than digital noise.
JJ Abrams mystery boxes and treasure hunts (fetch quests).
And YA melodrama.




To the people Star Trek has always appealed to. People who like Campbellian SciFi and not Hegelian, postmodern magical thinking SciFi (Ursula K. Le Guin).

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/are-we-all-too-cynical-for-star-trek
Are We All Too Cynical for Star Trek?
Since around seasons 2 and 3, I've felt the tone they've aimed for is the melodrama of Grey's Anatomy mixed with the elements of Star Trek. And how you feel about Discovery is largely based around whether you think those two things are good fits with each other.

Both shows operate on similar dynamics. Long story-arcs based around different crises that may span a season, but the individual stories within those crises are intertwined with a lot of relationship drama, emotional scenes that somehow connect to and involve characters' family issues, as well as a lot of self-doubts about whether those characters can be a good doctor/Starfleet officer and how that impacts their love life.
 
intertwined with a lot of relationship drama, emotional scenes that somehow connect to and involve characters' family issues, as well as a lot of self-doubts about whether those characters can be a good doctor/Starfleet officer and how that impacts their love life.
No wonder I enjoy it. Hits me where I Iive.
 
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For Discovery, I think the switch happened with "Project Daedalus" (S2E9). That's where I pinpoint the exact moment of change.
Haha, well, there's basically a post-it note on my Blu-ray of season 2 saying stop at 2x08 when rewatching...

I looked up the IMDB profiles of the STD writers who were listed on the ST Wiki at that time.
Very soon a pattern emerged and I had my answer.
A few years back I spent like 2 hours researching the history of the show's writing staff and wrote it up in a thread on this BBS. I'll just quote myself...

Disclaimer: I couldn't take Discovery anymore and dipped out of the show at the end of season 2. I am re-watching season 1 for the first time since it aired this week just to see what is apparent with hindsight, and came across this thread. Might as well share some insights gleaned from YouTube interviews with people with credible associations to others attached to the show. Usual reading the tea leaves / Kremlinology / rumor warnings apply.

Discovery season 1 can be broken into three segments more or less in behind the scenes production history.

Bryan Fuller's "original vision", with the writing and production staff he recruited.
  • 13 episode outlined, with Fuller writing the teleplay for episode 1 and Nicholas Meyer for episode 2
  • Likely people recruited by Fuller included in addition to Meyer, Gretchen J. Berg & Aaron Harberts, and Joe Menosky include Jesse Alexander (who previously worked with Fuller on Hannibal and Heroes, but also with Bad Robot people on Alias and Lost), Aron Eli Coleite (who previously worked with Fuller on Heroes), Trek novelist Kirsten Beyer, Bo Yeon Kim & Erika Lippoldt (who worked on Reign with Berg & Harberts), and Kemp Powers (a playwright with no prior TV credits)
  • the look of the Klingons would still have been changed, but uniform and ship production design would have had greater TOS era continuity
  • Lorca wasn't set to be from the Mirror universe
  • the mycelium spores were originally supposed to be used in planetary terraforming and not the spore drive
  • the tardigrade was an officer working with Stamets on the spore project
  • the Discovery would travel to the Mirror universe much earlier -- by the end of episode 4, with more of a focus on diverging pathways and what might have happened to Burnham had she taken different actions during the Battle of the Binary Stars (link to a write up of a Bryan Fuller interview with Robert Meyer Burnett where he covers his mirror universe plan in broad strokes)
  • Meyer suggested ST VI composer Cliff Eidelman to Fuller, who produced an unused theme song
Fuller allegedly clashed with CBS assigned pilot director David Semel. One account has CBS freaking out about the cost overruns and delays... slow productivity in the writers room. Then you have in the background all the minutia that animates certain segments of YouTube with just how involved Secret Hideout was in the beginning, Bad Robot / CBS / Paramount deals, how a Trek novelist reported that Secret Hideout predecessor company K/O Paper Products had some kind of television production rights for Star Trek, and the lot.

Next, you have the transitional phase of early production season 1.
  • Bryan Fuller departs, but remains credited as executive producer throughout the first season per contract.
  • More speculation side indicated Nicholas Meyer likely departs at the same time, but remains credited as a consulting producer for the first 13 episodes per contract. He works on the three part Ceti Alpha V project. [SPOILER FOR ACTIVE PROJECT DELETED] Neither Fuller or Meyer have assistants credited in the end credits, unlike other high ranking producers.
  • Gretchen J. Berg & Aaron Harberts take over as showrunners, while Akiva Goldsman comes in as a day to day proxy for Alex Kurtzman. They repeatedly clash.
  • Bryan Fuller's teleplay for "The Vulcan Hello" is re-written by Goldsman, the final writing credit reads "Teleplay by Bryan Fuller and Akiva Goldsman" / "Story by Bryan Fuller & Alex Kurtzman". Per WGA rules, "and" = a rewritten draft, while "&" = a writing team collaborating at the same time.
  • Nicholas Meyer's teleplay for "Battle of the Binary Stars" is thrown out or otherwise vacated, the final writing credit reads "Teleplay by Gretchen J. Berg & Aaron Harberts" / "Story by Bryan Fuller"
  • Fuller's final credited input comes in episode 3... "Teleplay by Gretchen J. Berg & Aaron Harberts & Craig Sweeny" / "Story by Bryan Fuller & Gretchen J. Berg & Aaron Harberts"
  • Episode 3 is directed by Goldsman, who won't receive an episode specific credit again until the finale
  • I'm unsure just where Craig Sweeny fits into this. He's credited as a consulting producer for the first 13 episodes and has his own credited assistant. He was likely under an overall production deal at CBS, and held the seat while developing projects he would be expected to showrun. His past credits include work with prior Trek writers Ira Steven Behr, Rene Echevarria, Robert Hewitt Wolfe, and Robert Doherty. His only writing credit is on episode 3.
  • With episode 3, Ted Sullivan joins the writing staff as a co-executive producer. In order of precedence he outranks Menosky, Alexander, and Coleite in the credits. He previously worked with Berg & Harberts on Revenge.
  • Episode 3 also sees the introduction of Sean Cochran as a staff writer, outranking Kemp Powers in order of precedence but below Kristen Beyer. Cochran worked on a whopping three different series with Berg & Harberts: Off the Map, GCB, and Revenge
  • Episodes 4, 5, 6, 7 sees Alexander, Coleite, Powers, Menosky, and Sullivan all credited as writers
  • Powers' last credit on the writing staff is episode 5, which he also co-wrote ("Choose Your Pain")
The major transition point between early and later season 1 occurs between episode 7 "Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad" and episode 8 "Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum" as several Bryan Fuller people depart and those with closer direct associations to Berg & Harberts come aboard
  • Alexander, Coleite, and Menosky all depart in one go
  • Lisa Randolph, who worked on Reign with Berg & Harberts joins as co-executive producer as of episode 7
  • Jordon Nardino, who worked on GCB with Berg & Harberts joins as co-executive producer as of episode 8
  • Beyer writes episode 8, her only writing credit of the season (which despite it's relatively short running time apparently had a lot cut out of it)
  • Kim & Lippoldt write episode 9, their only writing credit of the season
  • Randolph (twice), Nardino, Cochran, and Sullivan write the remaining episodes during the mirror arc until the finale
  • Season finale credits "Teleplay by Gretchen J. Berg & Aaron Harberts" / "Story by Akiva Goldsman & Gretchen J. Berg & Aaron Harberts" / "Directed by Akiva Goldsman"
Ok there went over an hour... maybe later on I'll do one on season 2

For some reason I remember also doing one for season 2, but can't find it on this subforum searching for myself
 
A few years back I spent like 2 hours researching the history of the show's writing staff and wrote it up in a thread on this BBS. I'll just quote myself...
I think it was in a RedLetterMedia review where they pointed out the show has 20+ people with a producer/executive producer title. How many of those are contractually obligated vanity titles, and how many are people with power to make decisions and be cooks in the kitchen is anyone's guess.

I can't find it, but I seem to remember that even Anthony Rapp posted a tweet once with an image that was:

Executive Producer
Everyone Who Ever Lived​

From what I've read about it, I'm not sure I would have liked Bryan Fuller's vision for the show. But I think I would of preferred to have seen it, and I have the suspicion that it would have been more coherent, because what they ended up with was muddled. It's true for every TV show, but when you change the showrunner usually the tone of the series changes, and with Discovery you can sense it in a lot of places, where the people behind the scenes are doing these course corrections from material and choices they may not have had a hand in making.
 
I think it was in a RedLetterMedia review where they pointed out the show has 20+ people with a producer/executive producer title. How many of those are contractually obligated vanity titles, and how many are people with power to make decisions and be cooks in the kitchen is anyone's guess.
In general, Rod Roddenberry & Trevor Roth, Aaron Baires, Heather Kayden, and Katie Krantz (on animation) are the pass through producers with sinecures. Some of the other people named are a producing director, the Toronto unit production people effectively in charge for tax credits purposes, a special effects guy with a supervising producer credit, and writers that didn't last long enough to get a writing credit.

Don't forget the "consulting producers". Nicholas Meyer, Craig Sweeny (who after early season 1 is the Section 31 guy), and of course John Ottman in season 3.

The real interesting one credits wise is PICARD season 1. So many of the "who's that?" producers are WGA members with ties to James Duff. I think it's more than reasonable to speculate that he was supposed to be the showrunner, considering so many of his people were seemingly brought in, plus his having rewrite credit for the first episode.
 
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I think it was in a RedLetterMedia review where they pointed out the show has 20+ people with a producer/executive producer title. How many of those are contractually obligated vanity titles, and how many are people with power to make decisions and be cooks in the kitchen is anyone's guess.

I can't find it, but I seem to remember that even Anthony Rapp posted a tweet once with an image that was:

Executive Producer
Everyone Who Ever Lived​

From what I've read about it, I'm not sure I would have liked Bryan Fuller's vision for the show. But I think I would of preferred to have seen it, and I have the suspicion that it would have been more coherent, because what they ended up with was muddled. It's true for every TV show, but when you change the showrunner usually the tone of the series changes, and with Discovery you can sense it in a lot of places, where the people behind the scenes are doing these course corrections from material and choices they may not have had a hand in making.

I agree that changing head writers often is not a good thing. For example: VOY. Seasons 1 and 2, Michael Piller was basically in charge of the writers. Then he stepped down from the franchise, and it was Jeri Taylor for season 3. Then Brannon Braga stepped up as co-head for season 4 (from what I have found, Taylor went back to more writing than headwriting that year, so it was more Braga than her that season). Then Braga was full head for seasons 5 and 6, with him stepping down to help create ENT during season 7. Kenneth Biller became head writer for the final year.

And one of the biggest problems (possibly the biggest, outside UPN suit interference) was with inconsistency throughout the show.

Now look at DS9. It changed head writer once... from Michael Piller to Ira Steven Behr. And DS9 showed itself to be very, very consistent through its run.

There's something to be said about having stability among the leadership. For one thing, it helps keep the vision of a series in focus.
 
Changes in Showrunners. Sometimes it's a turn for the better, sometimes it's a turn for the worse. It depends.

TNG, I really hate to say this but: the less Gene Roddenberry was involved, the better the show was. Maurice Hurley being the Showrunner was a step up, but Michael Piller was an even further step up.

Ironically, I think VOY got better once Michael Piller stepped down. I think it got worse when Jeri Taylor stepped down. Then I thought it improved again in Season 7 with Ken Biller as Showrunner. So, I preferred VOY seasons under Jeri Taylor or Ken Biller over VOY seasons under Michael Piller or Brannon Braga.

If Manny Coto had been the Showrunner for ENT from the beginning, I'd consider myself a fan of the show.

We never got to see DSC under Bryan Fuller, so we'll never truly know what it would've been like. We can only speculate. DSC under Gretchen Berg & Araon Harberts versus DSC under Michelle Paradise could be debated forever. I have no stance at the present moment. Ask me again in a year, when I've had some distance from the series as a whole.

Having read Patrick Stewart's autobiography, Making It So, I know that Paramount mandated that PIC Season 3 be a TNG Reunion. Patrick Stewart said it was something he didn't want but softened on that position by the time the third season rolled around. So, my opinion was the same as his and it changed along the same line as his at around the same point ("Nepenthe"). I know some people like to use Terry Matalas as a scapegoat, but PIC Season 3 would've been a TNG Reunion whether it was Michael Chabon as the Showrunner or Terry Matalas. It's what the studio wanted and it's what a lot of people wanted. But I do think a Michael Chabon PIC Season 3 would've been different from the actual PIC Season 3. So, once again, the difference in Showrunners matters.

Back in the '90s, I told someone who watched DS9 and VOY but didn't know all the details like I did (and do) that the two shows had different writing staffs and he said, "That's very obvious." You didn't even need to be familiar with all the names in the credits to be able to tell.
 
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Changes in Showrunners. Sometimes it's a turn for the better, sometimes it's a turn for the worse. It depends.

TNG, I really hate to say this but: the less Gene Roddenberry was involved, the better the show was. Maurice Hurley being the Showrunner was a step up, but Michael Piller was an even further step up.

Ironically, I think VOY got better once Michael Piller stepped down. I think it got worse when Jeri Taylor stepped down. Then I thought it improved again in Season 7 with Ken Biller as Showrunner. So, I preferred VOY seasons under Jeri Taylor or Ken Biller over VOY seasons under Michael Piller or Brannon Braga.

If Manny Coto had been the Showrunner for ENT from the beginning, I'd consider myself a fan of the show.

We never got to see DSC under Bryan Fuller, so we'll never know what that was like. We can only speculate. DSC under Gretchen Berg & Araon Harberts versus DSC under Michelle Paradise could be debated forever. I have no stance at the present moment. Ask me again in a year, when I've had some distance from the series as a whole.

Having read Patrick Stewart's autobiography, Making It So, I know that Paramount mandated that PIC Season 3 be a TNG Reunion. Patrick Stewart said it was something he didn't want but softened on that position by the time the third season rolled around. So, my opinion was the same as his and it changed along the same line as his at around the same time. I know some people like to use Terry Matalas as a scapegoat, but PIC Season 3 would've been a TNG Reunion whether it was Michael Chabon as the Showrunner or Terry Matalas. It's what the studio wanted and it's what a lot of people wanted. But I do think a Michael Chabon PIC Season 3 would've been different from the actual PIC Season 3. So, once again, the difference in Showrunners matters.

Back in the '90s, I told someone who watched DS9 and VOY but didn't know all the details like I did (and do) that the two shows had different writing staffs and he said, "That's very obvious." You didn't even need to be familiar with all the names in the credits to be able to tell.

I agree about Maurice Hurley and Michael Piller for TNG.

And Manny Coto should have been on ENT since day one.

With VOY, I have to disagree. Season 3 was just so much meh... it started off great and ended great (first 6 and last 6 produced). But so much of the middle was... so meh. Season 7 was very bland and mediocre, and season 6... I have never seen a season in the franchise that was so schizophrenic in terms of quality. (Great one week, terrible the next, decent for 2 more, horrible for 3, good, bad, awesome, blah, terrible, awesome, meh, abysmal, great, mediocre, bad.) I wonder if the reason season 6 was all over the place was because it was the first time in 7 years that only one STAR TREK show was on the air. I think the best were seasons 2, 4, and 5, with 1 being very solid.

And with DS9 and VOY... it really is very obvious they had different writing staffs.
 
Season 7 was very bland and mediocre, and season 6... I have never seen a season in the franchise that was so schizophrenic in terms of quality.

One of the things about Voyager's later seasons I really dislike is a number of episodes that really feel like they should have been much earlier on. It's like they brought writers in who wanted to fix the problems of earlier seasons, but in the process created problems for the later seasons. Things like season five's "Latent Image", which really should have happened much earlier in the EMH's character development and makes no sense for it to arise after five years of him regularly facing life-or-death decisions. Or season six's "One Small Step", which in terms of Seven's character development really should have been in season four. And these are not bad stories, they just feel... weirdly placed.
 
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