Voyager’s warp 9.99 ended up being slower than the NX-01’s warp 5.
"Warp 7 beauties" = the Daedalus class?
- Thread starter ED-209
- Start date
Voyager’s warp 9.99 ended up being slower than the NX-01’s warp 5.
I am.
Always.
Different continuity, perhaps?
Exactly. And TAS should always be reconciled with the rest of Trek. Never understood why it gets dismissed so quickly. For me, it's a part of TOS.
I prefer the "private joke between Gary and Jim" explanation, myself. A hint that Gary was still Gary.
Agreed 1000%. There are oddities that need to be ignored or accounted for, but it should not be dismissed out of hand. I understand that a lot of people discount it because Gene did, but in his later days Gene wanted to decanonize a lot of things that I would not.
I tend to dismiss it because it was officially considered not canon for several decades, and future installments did not consider TAS. Given that, there is ALOT from TAS that is difficult or damn near impossible to reconcile.
The Kzinti, for example. The Kzin-Man Wars just... did not happen. There is no way to reconcile that. They just didn't happen.
*IF* there are components of TAS that can be reconciled, sure. Something like the Bonaventure, we can make it work if we ignore the visuals. But by and large, I think TAS should be largely ignored.
SNW has pushed the date forward for the Eugenics Wars, despite Khan himself stating the year he came from. So if the current producers of Star Trek have no qualms about moving things around like that and deviating from the source material, then the wars with the Kzinti established in TAS can be retconned too.
As for the Bonaventure, it simply no longer fits well with the design lineage established in ENT, for good or ill. And to be honest, it's not like the animators went out of their way to try to truly establish what the 'first warp ship' should look like. They just took the Enterprise and distorted its proportions. (Of course, it's not like the producers of ENT went out of their way to try to truly establish what the 'first warp 5 ship' should look like either, as they just wanted to use the Akira class from FC before Drexler was able to convince them to tweak the design.)
Why?
Like what? Worse than Vulcan conquered then not? Star Trek is full of them. Part of the fun of fandom is trying to reconcile the differences, not throwing up your hands and going, "Nope, impossible."
Given what we know of the time period, sometime after at least 2067 up to around 2100, it's just not possible. Not only were there four wars, Earth won all of them.
And yet, by 2151 most humans have not set foot on a planet other than Earth and even by then Earth has only a small fleet of low warp vessels that have not gone far, and by 2153 when Earth is attacked... it is quite clear that Earth has absolutely zero experience in fighting an interstellar war and is completely and totally unprepared for such. A planet that had previously engaged in four victorious interstellar wars does not work in this context.
It's one of those things that just doesn't make any sense at all, and even with the most ridiculous of mental gymnastics, it just doesn't work. I'd love to hear anything that doesn't sound like the absolute ravings a mad man to explain that, but... good look. I've been at this a very long time and haven't heard one yet. Sometimes we just have to accept that is something that just doesn't work.
I agree. I'm all about reconciling things that may appear to be continuity errors. It's like, probably a primary hobby of mine.
There are some things that just... can't be reconciled.
The issue with TAS specifically is that it had already been largely discarded by the time that TNG rolled around, and every subsequent iteration of Star Trek has completely ignored it. This isn't a situation of a few potential continuity issues here and there, this is a situation of an iteration that was deliberately ignored.
In the specific instance of the Kzinti, it's complicated by the fact that it's quite literally an existing story that was bolted onto Star Trek wholesale.
Again, TAS works as sort of an incredibly soft-canon farm to grab some things here and there that work. Even as much of an aesthetics zealot as I am, there are even parts of TOS that should probably be quietly ignored.
So...we should ignore it? Like, your Kzin thing is fine, but that's an episode. Not the whole thing, which is strikingly absurd, yet what I see with fandom so often. "Doesn't fit? Discard it."
Well, personally, I say fuck that. TOS and TAS are there own thing, and the rest have no bearing on it.
Again, I feel this is a selective rule that gets applied far to selectively with no rhyme or reason.
Some of it is down to personal preference. Sure we could just eliminate a single episode. I personally have very little connection to TAS... I find it damn near unwatchable due to the primitive animation style and have never had any interest in it, as for my entire life up until a few years ago it just simply was not considered part of Star Trek.
So... simply ignoring TAS is completely fine for me.
That's basically where we ARE in the Kurtzman Era. TOS and TAS are basically their own thing.
I'm slowly coming to accept that TOS is being discarded. I don't like it. But... i'm accepting it.
Far from it. It is a selective rule, that is applied after all due consideration as to how something works with the rest of the lore. Sometimes it happens that... it just doesn't. There are times when we can make something work... I can go on a whole tirade making TOS "Balance of Terror" work alongside ENT, from cloaks, to "impulse power", I can make that all work.
Realistically though, prior to the Kurtzman Era, most issues with TOS could be fairly easily written off as odd word choices or the like, or a character misspoke. The "James R. Kirk" thing, Mitchell was losing his god damned mind, he got a detail wrong. Easy peasy.
The Kurtzman stuff has made it much more difficult to continue to reconcile TOS, and since SNW "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow" they have established "nothing matters, everything can change" so it's moot anyway.
TOS never really fit in with the TWOK-on or TNG-on era.
TOS/TMP always felt like their own thing distinct from the rest of the Trek media, to me.
TOS/TMP always felt like their own thing distinct from the rest of the Trek media, to me.
Once I came to terms with it, my interest in post-TOS Trek has really evaporated.
Designing a warp 7 ship, would probably be something Andorian-Earth mix. I'd imagine the nose/body of a Andorian destroyer with the engineering section and raised nacelles of Earth. A lean fast ship. Probably looks like a kitbashed Vulcan ship.
The NX wobbled at Warp 5, so its frame had a limit. High warp at the Vulcan's level probably means immediate designs had to look to other alien ship design.
The NX wobbled at Warp 5, so its frame had a limit. High warp at the Vulcan's level probably means immediate designs had to look to other alien ship design.
Well, not quite. There was TOS, then there was the TMP-era films which had their own aesthetic separate from TOS, and then there was TNG, which went right back to aping the look and feel of TOS.
TMP, definitely. It had more of the Space: 1999 aesthetic than anything before or since.
True. Its just to me given how the TMP/TWOK-on looks and feel, I dribble it with TOS cause TMP is what Roddenberry wanted as a continuation off TOS.
Agreed completely with this. I am also not very fond of the idea that the refit NX mounted the Warp Seven engine.
That's an intriguing idea, but you'd have no saucer at all? It could be a very long, thin ship; essentially Kumari with a saucer atop it, with the Kumari nose acting like a sort of horizontal interconnecting dorsal.
That's an intriguing idea, but you'd have no saucer at all? It could be a very long, thin ship; essentially Kumari with a saucer atop it, with the Kumari nose acting like a sort of horizontal interconnecting dorsal.[/QUOTE]Yup, no saucer. Later ships would incorporate the saucer but for the time being immediate warp 7 ships would be lean need for speed builds. Immediate response to crisis to investigate/help while slower Warp 5-6 ships are behind it.
Going with the old TOS era cube formula, and leaving out all those further complications thought up to reconcile inconsistencies between episodes, each new warp increment would yield a higher absolute speed, but a lower relative increase.
That is, If we compute the relative improvement x^3 /(x-1)^3 to see how much we'd go up in relative speed by climbing one warp factor, we'd get
x x^3/(x-1)^3
1 -
2 8
3 3.375
4 2.37037037
5 1.953125
6 1.728
7 1.587962963
8 1.49271137
9 1.423828125
10 1.371742112
i.e. while going from warp 1 to warp 2 gives you no less than an 8-fold increase in speed (+800%), going from warp 9 to (TOS) warp 10 only nets you a +37% speed boost factor. So the first one would be an absolute gamechanger whereas the second one would be a nice-to-have only in most situations. (More generally, each doubling of a warp factor would give you an 8-fold increase, so going from warp 1 to warp 2 gives the same relative improvement as going from warp 5 to warp 10).
Warp 2 was only achieved in 2143, whereas warp 5 was achieved only about 10 years later - that's a 15-fold increase in 10 years, which I would call very significant progress. It seems moving up from warp 1 to warp 2 is the hard thing to achieve for some reason. It took Vulcans about a hundred years, and even the innovative humans still about 80 years (even if perhaps they were held back a bit by the Vulcans). After that, progress seems a lot easier, and especially after warp 5, further increases become less and less important (except perhaps in terms of speed as a tactical advantage in war situations).
Same, Lord Hierarch. TOS has always been its own thing to be. The connections to TNG forward were specious at best and did not fit.
I just don't see how its more difficult than TMP. It's an adjustment of visuals...never mind. Won't belabor the rotting corpse of a dead horse any longer.
I find it amusing that we can discard whole episodes of TAS to suit a fancy but working within TOS and SNW is a bridge too far.
I must reluctantly agree. As time passes, it's more difficult to fully reconcile TOS and TAS with TNG and its spinoffs. I tend to think of TOS/TAS as some sort of inaccurate "historical document." Truth be told, in much the same way, I have a hard time reconciling the current generation of Star Trek series with any of the previous series. YMMV.
Similar threads
