Ways that SNW actually improved TOS

[Nerys Myk]

The goal is for me to have fun. So success.

 

[fireproof78]

I did meet some of the cast 2 weeks ago, and they seem to be having a lot of fun! So if that's the goal for this show, it's succeeding at it.

Yes, the goal is fun and interesting characters. Succeeding on both counts.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

My inclination is the fact that they'll probably go with the idea that "Timing is everything."

Yeah, it makes sense that Pon'farr changes the options.

However, they never formally broke it off and by the time Spock arrives, he's in a state of homicidal murder that will only be satisfied with T'Pring and would result in Stonn dying (or Spock).

Per Blood Fever (VOY) the ritual combat option actually resolves the pon'farr in addition to breaking the betroval per Amok Time.

T'Pring, also suffering Pon Farr at the time because we know women do now, has her logic come up with a pretty nasty and ruthless solution on the fly.

It's also possible that Spock was partly to blame for that being the only option for him, by refusing to address the issue until it was almost too late. I could see a scenario where T'Pring has been trying to communicate with him for some time to break it off the usual way, but he's been ignoring her, setting up the events of the episode.

But I could be wrong on some or all of the above. YMMV.

 

[Mudd]

"It's not like the things I like about TOS" is not the same as "It isn't an improvement on TOS." SNW is better on so many fronts...

 

[Christopher]

Per Blood Fever (VOY) the ritual combat option actually resolves the pon'farr in addition to breaking the betroval per Amok Time.

Per "Amok Time," rather, since Spock came to his senses as soon as Kirk was "dead." The only new thing "Blood Fever" added was that the combat apparently didn't need to be to the death, which also retroactively made "Amok Time" unnecessary -- unless you assume that Vorik's attempted use of a holographic sex partner partially resolved his pon farr so that he didn't need to go all the way to lethal combat to dissipate it the rest of the way.

It's also possible that Spock was partly to blame for that being the only option for him, by refusing to address the issue until it was almost too late. I could see a scenario where T'Pring has been trying to communicate with him for some time to break it off the usual way, but he's been ignoring her, setting up the events of the episode.

Okay, that's the first appealing hypothesis I've seen here, since it doesn't require turning T'Pring into a monster. He did say "I hoped I would be spared this," that as a half-human, he might not have to go through the blood fever. So maybe he just avoided thinking about the whole issue.

 

[fireproof78]

It's also possible that Spock was partly to blame for that being the only option for him, by refusing to address the issue until it was almost too late. I could see a scenario where T'Pring has been trying to communicate with him for some time to break it off the usual way, but he's been ignoring her, setting up the events of the episode.

Possible. Also, T'Pring might have been hoping he would came to Vulcan to stay snd resigned from Starfleet.

 

[Charles Phipps]

It's also possible that Spock was partly to blame for that being the only option for him, by refusing to address the issue until it was almost too late. I could see a scenario where T'Pring has been trying to communicate with him for some time to break it off the usual way, but he's been ignoring her, setting up the events of the episode.

But I could be wrong on some or all of the above. YMMV.

It's also canon in "Amok Time" that until it hits him well into adulthood after he's already been sexually active for, well, decades at this point, that Spock thought Human/Vulcan hybrids didn't suffer Pon'Farr. Spock even mentions he thought he would be spared this. Presumably he also would have done the math and T'Pring would have gone through it multiple times.

Edit:

Oops, @Christopher got to it first.

 

[Jedi Marso]

Eeeeeaaaaaagh! Okay, I'll bite.

I thought about this after some posts I made in the Gen Trek forum, but one of the things I love about Strange New Worlds is the way that it makes certain aspects of the Original Series so much better than they already were. Here's a list of a few I could think of:
1) This was the first one I thought of, and that's T'Pring. SNW has really expanded and improved her character, along with adding depth to her relationship with Spock AND providing a motivation for her actions in Amok Time that is sympathetic.

No. SNW took what was truly 'alien' culture wrt to mating and relationships, and completely 'normalized' it for drama and teen-style relationship angst. Her motivations in Amok Time were plain as day.

2) Along the same lines, it also adds a lot of depth to the relationship between Spock and Chapel. Whereas on TOS Chapel just seemed like someone with an unrequited crush on Spock, in SNW we see that it's much deeper than that, and the Spock we see in TOS is probably reacting to Chapel the way he does because he's still very emotionally damaged from how their relationship ended.

More unneeded drama and relationship angst. Spock is younger and less experienced in SNW, but SNW Chapel is a completely different character from TOS Chapel.

3) Speaking of relationships, we get a much stronger explanation for why Spock would literally risk his career (And death, apparently, har-har) to take Pike to Talos.

I'll give you this one.

When you consider that Spock knew Pike was aware of his own fate, and chose to live with it anyway in order to save Spock's life, that is a powerful motivator for what Spock did to help Pike.

I'm not sure, but does Spock really know that, or has Pike just hinted at it?

4) Another relationship that really gets fleshed out? The explanation of Sarek's attitude towards Spock. Now it's not just a trite "Oh, my son didn't pursue the career I WANTED him to pursue", it's literally a slap in the face to Sarek since he sabotaged Burnham's choice with the assumption Spock would take her place. So Spock tossed all of Sarek's plans in the bin and damaged his reputation in the process. Suddenly, the bitterness makes a lot more sense.

Anything to do with Michael Burnham and Disco is a non-starter for me personally. Disco does not exist in my head-canon.

5) The war with the Klingons goes a long way in contextualizing the animosity we see towards the Klingons in TOS, as well. It explains the Fed's actions all the way up to Star Trek 6 and Cartwright's conspiracy.

You are talking about DIsco again here, not SNW. The way the Klingons and that plot arc was handled in Disco is another reason my dislike for it is so intense that I just ignore its existence.

Before the haters pile on, I remind you that these are my opinions, and carry exactly that much weight. I can't make Disco magically disappear, or make M'Benga, Chapel, and Uhura different characters using the same actors. But if I could, I would.

 

[Christopher]

SNW Chapel is a completely different character from TOS Chapel.

No doubt, but she's such a great improvement that I'm fine with the change.

I'm not sure, but does Spock really know that, or has Pike just hinted at it?

As I recall, Pike told Spock the whole story in the SNW series premiere.

 

[fireproof78]

No. SNW took what was truly 'alien' culture wrt to mating and relationships, and completely 'normalized' it for drama and teen-style relationship angst. Her motivations in Amok Time were plain as day.

Yes. Cold and self-serving.

More unneeded drama and relationship angst. Spock is younger and less experienced in SNW, but SNW Chapel is a completely different character from TOS Chapel.

She had a character in TOS?

But if I could, I would.

To what end? And what would you change them to?

I'm not sure, but does Spock really know that, or has Pike just hinted at it?

Yes, he knows.

 

[Nerys Myk]

SNW Chapel is a completely different character from TOS Chapel.

Nah, they just gave the character some depth.

 

[Jedi Marso]

Yes. Cold and self-serving.

Yes. Deliciously evil in her application of logic.

To what end? And what would you change them to?

To get rid of the unnecessary, endless callbacks and small universe syndrome. Same with Kirk- who we should NEVER have seen, I'm sorry- and now Scotty. I wouldn't substantially change the characters themselves, just give them different names and backstories so the writers were free to take them in any direction instead of now needing to 'conform' to future canon, because we know what happens to these characters in the future. M'Benga in particular makes zero sense.

Of course, since I'm in the camp of 'it's an alternate 'verse', I guess it shouldn't really matter to me. It's just the principle of it, and the way it stifles their potential character growth moving forward.

 

[evilchumlee]

About the only thing I can say that makes TOS "better" is a more in-depth characterization for Uhura, although is some ways I also think her inclusion in SNW hurts the character somewhat. She's presented in SNW as something of a wunderkind, an absolute genius-level intellect... ending up at the Comm station straight out of the Academy... and then... staying there for the next decade or so. I don't necessarily think that's a problem, she does get promotions and the position is a high-profile, high-demand one... but for someone has incredibly qualified as Uhura, one would think she would have attained greater success in that time period.

I don't think the inclusion of any of the other TOS characters helps anything. Chapel is problematic by just being a totally different character. Some might like the new character, but I don't see completely altering a character as "helping" anything. M'Benga was so irrelevant in TOS it doesn't matter. Kirk is... fine, but really shouldn't have anything to do with this show. I'll give it some more time but as of right now, I actively dislike Scotty, who also feels like an entirely different character. TOS Scotty was something of a "man's man", a surly dude ready to throw punches at Klingons for insulting his ship. SNW Scotty feels like a little sniveling nerd who is more likely to hide than stand and fight. "But, they're young, they can change!"... they aren't that young. TOS is in 5 years. Sure, things can change in 5 years, but I don't buy a complete and total character shift.

Spock is the wildcard. I can kind of take or leave what they're doing. I don't think it really "adds" anything, but i'm cool with Spock. I do think it's time to cool it with the "experimenting with humanity" thing... he should be long over this.

 

[Captain Jollydark]

About the only thing I can say that makes TOS "better" is a more in-depth characterization for Uhura, although is some ways I also think her inclusion in SNW hurts the character somewhat. She's presented in SNW as something of a wunderkind, an absolute genius-level intellect... ending up at the Comm station straight out of the Academy... and then... staying there for the next decade or so. I don't necessarily think that's a problem, she does get promotions and the position is a high-profile, high-demand one... but for someone has incredibly qualified as Uhura, one would think she would have attained greater success in that time period.

But, what if, like Spock, she's the head of her department. I've pretended that was the case since I was a teenager.

 

[Tuskin38]

I do think it's time to cool it with the "experimenting with humanity" thing... he should be long over this.

Pretty sure he will be after the events of the Crossover and Musical.

 

[evilchumlee]

But, what if, like Spock, she's the head of her department. I've pretended that was the case since I was a teenager.

Oh i'm sure that she is. She has an incredibly important position. Always has. And I think that's perfectly acceptable for a "normal" person. SNW has tended to portray Uhura as beyond normal. She excels in most fields and is "above average" in nearly every way... the only thing really holding her back is being unsure of what she actually wants to do with herself, which by S2 seems to have largely been resolved.

 

[Captain Jollydark]

Oh i'm sure that she is. She has an incredibly important position. Always has. And I think that's perfectly acceptable for a "normal" person. SNW has tended to portray Uhura as beyond normal. She excels in most fields and is "above average" in nearly every way... the only thing really holding her back is being unsure of what she actually wants to do with herself, which by S2 seems to have largely been resolved.

Hasn't it been established that only the most extraordinary people serve on the bridge of the Enterprise?

 

[Christopher]

About the only thing I can say that makes TOS "better" is a more in-depth characterization for Uhura, although is some ways I also think her inclusion in SNW hurts the character somewhat. She's presented in SNW as something of a wunderkind, an absolute genius-level intellect... ending up at the Comm station straight out of the Academy... and then... staying there for the next decade or so. I don't necessarily think that's a problem, she does get promotions and the position is a high-profile, high-demand one... but for someone has incredibly qualified as Uhura, one would think she would have attained greater success in that time period.

Counterargument: Will Riker. He was offered three starship commands before or during the early seasons of TNG, yet he chose to remain in the same job for 16 years because he was happy there. In the Federation, they've outgrown the idea that career success requires constantly chasing greater status; it's enough to find something you excel at and enjoy, and just stay there.

I don't think the inclusion of any of the other TOS characters helps anything. Chapel is problematic by just being a totally different character. Some might like the new character, but I don't see completely altering a character as "helping" anything.

I don't get it when people are opposed to changing things in fiction. All creativity is a process of trial, error, and change. You test things out, you see what works and what doesn't, and you replace what doesn't work and improve what does. In a novel or a movie, you do all that before it comes out, but in an ongoing series, that process of change and development happens in front of the audience, and you trust the audience to go along with it and accept that the later changes supersede the early ideas. That's why we have James T. Kirk instead of R., why it's Starfleet instead of UESPA, why Spock stopped being shouty, why Picard lost his Chekov-like caricatured devotion to France after season 1, why Data was retconned as not using contractions after using them frequently before "Datalore" and retconned as not having emotions despite displaying emotion clearly in seasons 1 & 2. And why we accept in retrospect that the Federation was at war with Cardassia in TNG seasons 1-2 even though "Peak Performance" made it clear that Picard considered war games an atavism for a Starfleet that had been at peace for ages.

Change is part of how series fiction works. But we fool ourselves into forgetting the older changes, glossing over them in our minds, so we convince ourselves that the old stuff was consistent when it actually wasn't, and that's why we have trouble with the new changes.

 

[fireproof78]

Of course, since I'm in the camp of 'it's an alternate 'verse', I guess it shouldn't really matter to me. It's just the principle of it, and the way it stifles their potential character growth moving forward.

How so? These characters live? I feel like that's the only outcome they are bound by.

I agree overall with your sentiment, and share the frustration of Kirk's appearance, which was ridiculous and I have no desire to see Kirk and see him being set up to take over for Pike. But, I'm told I'm being ridiculous for thinking such things.

 

[evilchumlee]

*snip* In the Federation, they've outgrown the idea that career success requires constantly chasing greater status; it's enough to find something you excel at and enjoy, and just stay there.

And that's fair.

I don't get it when people are opposed to changing things in fiction.

Changing things is fine, in context.

SNW is specifically a prequel to TOS, therefore, this show... as a prequel... should be about setting up TOS and the characters we know from it.

why it's Starfleet instead of UESPA, why Spock stopped being shouty, why Picard lost his Chekov-like caricatured devotion to France after season 1,

Note all of these happened later, not in a prequel changing them retroactively...

why Data was retconned as not using contractions after using them frequently before "Datalore" and retconned as not having emotions despite displaying emotion clearly in seasons 1 & 2

Both of those were always supposed to be a thing, the production was just more loosey goosey in 1 and 2. That's not really "changing" it, it's being sloppy.

And why we accept in retrospect that the Federation was at war with Cardassia in TNG seasons 1-2 even though "Peak Performance" made it clear that Picard considered war games an atavism for a Starfleet that had been at peace for ages.

Again though sort of apples and oranges. It's more problematic in reverse.

Some changes are fairly minor and easily handwaved. Fundamentally changing a character's entire personality is a different story than some background lore details.

Change is part of how series fiction works. But we fool ourselves into forgetting the older changes, glossing over them in our minds, so we convince ourselves that the old stuff was consistent when it actually wasn't, and that's why we have trouble with the new changes.

Change is great, when it's done forwards. I'm perfectly happy to see characters I know progress and change over time. I don't want to see the characters regress...