What is your personal head canon?

[fireproof78]

Hmm, one could have several 'temporal violations' for one time travel trip. Sisko, at the end of Trials and Tribble-ations, seemed to think he'd get a letter of reprimand solely for purposely talking to Captain Kirk before returning to his own time.

Exactly. And in TOS we know Starfleet sanctions time travel for specific purposes. So, there must be some sort of rules governing what officers can and can't do.

People may not like Lucsly and Dulmur but they are not out line of to expect a decorated officer, like Kirk, to follow the rules. Otherwise, we are deep in to the ends justifies the means territory and Kirk can do no wrong because "I saved Earth."

 

[Farscape One]

I don't agree that Kirk got away with it completely, since he was demoted.

But I can see fireproof's point, even though I don't fully agree with it.

A good example of a leader having to face consequences for their actions... BABYLON 5. After Sheridan freed Earth from Clark's regime, he was basically forced to resign.

"The bitch of it is, you did the right thing. But you did it in the wrong way... the inconvenient way."
President Luchenko, "Rising Star"

Sheridan had no idea he had a presidency job ahead of him... he was fine with saving Earth from Clark's dictatorship and making sure his crew were cleared of charges. But it meant he could no longer be a part of what he served his entire life.

 

[BK613]

We don't really know, either way, because they don't go into detail.

Yeah, they don't define what they mean by the term 'temporal violation' but my mind always thinks 'moving violation' when I hear the term.
And just like speeding, red-light running etc, are violations that fall under that umbrella, doing different things during a time travel trip might constitute different violations.
For example, interacting with others could be one, demonstrating future tech could be another, and it's a good bet that bringing items forward from the past would be a third (you know, like humpback whales, marine biologists or tribbles.)

 

[BillJ]

For example, interacting with others could be one, demonstrating future tech could be another, and it's a good bet that bringing items forward from the past would be a third (you know, like humpback whales, marine biologists or tribbles.)

Much like the Prime Directive, I imagine the Temporal Prime Directive has a ton of subsections, that interpreted correctly by the time traveler, would have them go free regardless of what they did in the past.

Kirk brought two things forward in time, the Whales and a marine biologist, one was absolutely needed, the other would be needed for the welfare of the Whales. Though I never understood why Starfleet sent Taylor away on a ship when the entire ecosystem of the Pacific Ocean could be thrown out of whack by the Whales, and that they might not be sufficient microbes to protect them from whatever new has developed in the intervening centuries.

There is only one loose end that Kirk really left, that was Taylor. I guess she was supposed to die at some point in the near future for the timeline to be unaffected. Though, there is poor Bob, seen fighting with Taylor before she went missing.

Poor SOB probably ended up in California's gas chamber for murdering Taylor.

 

[BillJ]

A good example of a leader having to face consequences for their actions... BABYLON 5. After Sheridan freed Earth from Clark's regime, he was basically forced to resign.

"The bitch of it is, you did the right thing. But you did it in the wrong way... the inconvenient way."
President Luchenko, "Rising Star"

Sheridan had no idea he had a presidency job ahead of him... he was fine with saving Earth from Clark's dictatorship and making sure his crew were cleared of charges. But it meant he could no longer be a part of what he served his entire life.

So that means there were actually rules on the books governing that type of behavior.

 

[Farscape One]

So that means there were actually rules on the books governing that type of behavior.

Yes. He basically committed mutiny on Earthforce itself and led the insurrection to take out Clark. (B5 did a good job of showing just how much it bothered Sheridan that he had to go to such lengths, and how far Clark had to go before Sheridan actually went on the attack.)

 

[Shawnster]

So you would take someone out of the captain's chair that actually understands the ramifications of their actions where time travel is concerned?

Briefly, yes.

Rules are rules.

Kirk was busted from Admiral down to Captain. He was punished.

A good example of a leader having to face consequences for their actions... BABYLON 5. After Sheridan freed Earth from Clark's regime, he was basically forced to resign.

And just like Sheridan, Kirk's punishment really wasn't a punishment.

 

[Farscape One]

Kirk was busted from Admiral down to Captain. He was punished.



And just like Sheridan, Kirk's punishment really wasn't a punishment.

The difference between Kirk and Sheridan, though, was Kirk was still in Starfleet. Sheridan could no longer be in Earthforce. And while he did get named President of the Interstellar Alliance, Sheridan didn't know that was going to happen. Plus, Sheridan was not someone who enjoyed politics much. Kirk fully loved being a starship captain. I'd argue Kirk got the better deal between those two. (Despite getting to call the shots of an interstellar alliance of different races, that's a much bigger headache than being a starship captain. Or even commander of Babylon 5. Just look at some of the headaches he went through in season 5...)

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

And just like Sheridan, Kirk's punishment really wasn't a punishment.

..and I believe that's the "problem" some have with Kirk; they seem to think he should have been dealt some severe punishment for his actions, but ignore the fact that their lives--and in many cases--entire species--were saved by Kirk's deliberate actions. If I were a defense attorney for Kirk in a jury trial, I would look to the jury and spectator gallery and ask, "so...you think Kirk was wrong? Would you rather he never time traveled to retrieve the whales?" The question implying that anyone thinking Kirk should not have time traveled at all is essentially another way of saying they--the jury--are asking to die, since the probe's impact was going to lead to that lethal conclusion for all life on earth.

I will always maintain that Kirk's time traveling (especially in ST4) renders any so-called "violation" as utterly irrelevant, since he (Kirk) guaranteed there would be a future for people like the anal bureaucrats to even exist to whine about the man.

 

[fireproof78]

Kirk was busted from Admiral down to Captain. He was punished.

Ok, say it with me...
Not For Time Travel.

He was demoted for disobeying a direct order.

.and I believe that's the "problem" some have with Kirk; they seem to think he should have been dealt some severe punishment for his actions

Not severe. Any punishment. You don't get a get out of jail free card for violating rules just because it worked out. We have a term for that: "Ends justify the means."

 

[BillJ]

Not severe. Any punishment. You don't get a get out of jail free card for violating rules just because it worked out. We have a term for that: "Ends justify the means."

We have no rule that we know of that Kirk has broken, regarding time travel.

 

[Shat Happens]

Kirk learned his lesson. Punishment fit the crime.

star trek IV:

KIRK: Spock?
SPOCK: As suspected, the Probe's transmissions are the songs sung by whales.
KIRK: Whales?
SPOCK: Specifically, humpback whales.
McCOY: That's crazy! Who would send a Probe hundreds of light years to talk to a whale?
KIRK: It's possible. Whales have been on Earth far earlier than man.
SPOCK: Ten million years earlier. And humpbacks were heavily hunted by man. They've been extinct since the twenty-first century. It is possible that an alien intelligence sent the Probe to determine why they lost contact.
McCOY: My God!
KIRK: Spock, could the humpback's answer to this call be simulated?
SPOCK: The sounds, but not the language. We would be responding in gibberish.
KIRK: Does the species exist on any other planet?
SPOCK: Negative. Humpbacks were indigenous to Earth. Earth of the past.
KIRK: Then we have no choice. We must destroy the Probe before it destroys Earth.
SPOCK: To attempt to do so would be futile, Admiral. The Probe could render us neutral easily.
KIRK: But we can't turn away! ...There must be an alternative?
SPOCK: There is one possibility, but I cannot guarantee its success. We could attempt to find some humpback whales.
McCOY: You just said there aren't any, except on Earth of the past.
SPOCK: Yes Doctor, that's exactly what I said.
McCOY: Well, in that case... Now wait just a damn minute!
KIRK: Spock, start your computations for time warp. ...Bones, you come with me.

Kirk had a Kling Bird of Prey, refurbished by Vulcs in only 3 months after taking two photon torpedoes, plus Spock recently zombified, and he made the decision to time warp in under a minute.

In VI, when he did have the Enterprise fully crewed and operational, including Spock already working on all thrusters, so the time warp would have been much safer, easier and precise, he did not go back to before Gorkon was shot.


Kirk learned his lesson. Punishment fit the crime.

 

[cooleddie74]

^
Every bit of this.

 

[BillJ]

Kirk learned his lesson. Punishment fit the crime.

I imagine Kirk was on a much shorter leash in those years after the Genesis Incident.

 

[Shawnster]

Ok, say it with me...
Not For Time Travel.

He was demoted for disobeying a direct order.

Not severe. Any punishment. You don't get a get out of jail free card for violating rules just because it worked out. We have a term for that: "Ends justify the means."

He was on trial. If he was guilty of violating any time travel prohibition, that was the time and place to punish him for said crime.

From ST:VOY


FEDERATION PRESIDENT: As you wish. ...The charges and specifications are. Conspiracy. Assault on Federation Officers. Theft of Federation Property, namely the Starship Enterprise. Sabotage of the U.S.S. Excelsior, Wilful destruction of Federation Property, specifically the aforementioned U.S.S. Enterprise. And finally, disobeying direct orders of the Starfleet Commander. ...Admiral Kirk, how do you plead?

No mention of time travel.

 

[Shat Happens]

I imagine Kirk was on a much shorter leash in those years after the Genesis Incident.

I think ADM Morrow just quit rather than having to deal with Kirk anymore. He stole one of his starships after he gave him fatherly advice, and next time he was on Earth he was smelling like roses to everyone around him. On no. Morrow had enough of Kirk's shit. Let him be Cartwright's problem.

 

[fireproof78]

He was on trial. If he was guilty of violating any time travel prohibition, that was the time and place to punish him for said crime.

From ST:VOY


FEDERATION PRESIDENT: As you wish. ...The charges and specifications are. Conspiracy. Assault on Federation Officers. Theft of Federation Property, namely the Starship Enterprise. Sabotage of the U.S.S. Excelsior, Wilful destruction of Federation Property, specifically the aforementioned U.S.S. Enterprise. And finally, disobeying direct orders of the Starfleet Commander. ...Admiral Kirk, how do you plead?

No mention of time travel.

I'm aware. And I'm saying there should be.

That's my view on it. Saying he got consequences for another thing is hardly consistent behavior with Starfleet and gives Kirk a blank check to act with a fair level of impunity.

We have no rule that we know of that Kirk has broken, regarding time travel.

That we know of.

Kirk learned his lesson. Punishment fit the crime.

Debatable.

 

[Citiprime]

I think an argument can be made that if you look at the totality of Kirk’s career, he was respected but some of his choices probably stepped on too many toes to the point his power within Starfleet was severely limited and maybe feared.

In fact, the TOS movies overall show for the most part him in a sad existence, where he’s constantly trying to escape from the limitations of a position he’s not happy in.

• It seems like he has to call in every favor he has to get the Enterprise back in The Motion Picture after being put in a desk job after the original five-year mission. Was he promoted to admiral as a reward? Or was he moved upward to get him out of the field by some in Starfleet leadership that perhaps didn’t agree with all of his decisions while on the frontier and sidelined him?
• In Search for Spock, Kirk can’t save the Enterprise from being decommissioned, he can’t get a straight answer about Genesis, and he doesn’t have enough political power to even take a ship to Genesis.
• Kirk is reacting to all of the decisions in The Undiscovered Country. He’s “volunteered” for the mission by his first officer and Starfleet Command without being asked for his input. The conspiracy within Starfleet show how much they disrespect him by trying to use him as a patsy and fall guy. And, again, Kirk can be seen as a sort of sad figure in the film, where he has nothing but his position and ship, and he’s losing both soon. There’s no family to go home to, only the family that’s being broken apart when they stand down, and bitter memories of a lost son.

Yes, he “gets away with things” but I think if you look at the real-world politics of it, you can understand why while also maybe seeing how it may not have made him the most popular person with career officers and superiors.

If we had military people today who undertook a mission that broke the law stealing equipment to save their friend but in a vivid and demonstrable way saved the world before they surrendered, does anyone really believe any jury would convict them? Or that a prosecutor would even bring the case to trial to begin with?

It would be settled quietly. People would retire or be given a reassignment. And there would be a rationalization for how it makes sense in context. I mean we live in a world where in the past 2 decades major bank executives who committed fraud on a massive scale that nearly crashed the world economy, and politicians that facilitated a system to torture suspects in violation of black-letter human rights law during the War on Terror went unprosecuted, and we’re wondering how fictional characters on a TV show get away with bending policy?

Also, I think overall Star Trek takes the position Picard states when Data turns himself over for discipline in TNG’s “Redemption Part II.” Intent and purpose are more important than the letter of the law and the formal rules. “Just following orders” should never be more important than doing what is right and called for in a situation.

 

[1001001]

If you push somebody out of the way of an oncoming car, are you going to be convicted and punished for assault?

Extenuating circumstances and mitigating factors, and all that.

 

[BillJ]

My "concern" is how easily people are calling for Kirk's punishment, even though we know of no laws/rules that he broke.