Pre-2009 Star Trek and LGBTQI+ representation: simple disinterest or active hostility?

[BillJ]

And so is Mariner. Surprised no one's mentioned that Trek has an LGBTQ series lead.

My third or fourth favorite character in the franchise, to date.

 

[Farscape One]

I have to agree that using Jack Harkness is not a good barometer when comparing these issues on tv. As has already been stated, DOCTOR WHO was and is produced in the U.K. European countries are not as prudish about such things as the U.S., so there is a different standard about such subjects.

While I don't think there was an active hostility toward the LGBT community during that era, there might have been indifference. What I mean by that is a subject like homosexuality is such a non-issue within the Federation and Starfleet that calling attention to it might seem like regression. Look at how Stamets/Culber are shown on DISCO. No one bats an eye that it's two guys together. It's simply love. (This is actually one of the few things I really like about DISCO... the way their relationship is portrayed.)

Could the franchise have done that back then? I don't think so, because even on other shows produced during that era, gay couples aren't shown as just simply a couple. Their homosexuality would be more spotlighted with the various stereotypes out there. I'm not gay, but I would think having such stereotypes spotlighted would make me feel like it's doing more harm than good, despite good intentions.

Ironically, having none of that around in the franchise might have helped make episodes like "The Outcast" and "REJOINED" work well. (I feel that "REJOINED" was truly the best 'romance of the week' episode the franchise ever did, because it was simply about love. "The Outcast", for 12 year old me at the time it aired, made me think about a subject and a group of people I didn't really pay any attention to. I consider that a success.)

I want to believe that what Berman said about creativity being the main reason it didn't happen on his watch is accurate. But since none of us were in those meetings or writers' room discussions, we'll never know for sure.

 

[BillJ]

But since none of us were in those meetings or writers' room discussions, we'll never know for sure.

That is the problem in a nutshell. None of us were there, so none of us really know what went on. We can guess, and guess and guess and guess. But we're guessing in the dark without a lightbulb in the quadrant.

 

[BillJ]

If nothing else, "Rejoined" gives credence to the idea that same sex attraction is a thing in the Star Trek universe.

If Lenara Khan was a dude and walked in, in a Vader suit and was grotesquely deformed, Dax would've probably been like, "that's okay, we can be friends".

 

[Farscape One]

If nothing else, "Rejoined" gives credence to the idea that same sex attraction is a thing in the Star Trek universe.

If Lenara Khan was a dude and walked in, in a Vader suit and was grotesquely deformed, Dax would've probably been like, "that's okay, we can be friends".

I don't know... as Kira pointed out a few times, Dax was very... forgiving when it came to appearances. (Which I applaud.)

 

[Oddish]

Dax was very... forgiving when it came to appearances

A certain chap with a transparent skull comes to mind...

 

[UssGlenn]

Just as a pont of comparison, ABC put a parental advisory on Ellen's TV show in 1997.

 

[BillJ]

Just as a pont of comparison, ABC put a parental advisory on Ellen's TV show in 1997.

Yeah. I remember that.

 

[Oddish]

I remember when heterosexual encounters, at least with the teen characters, got the same warning.

 

[Jayson1]

Yeah. And I don't think Star Trek was ever a "Family Show." Sure, it was/is a show you can watch with the whole family, but I don't think it was ever intended specifically for that. . Unless in the States it is absolutely normal in a series dedicated also for an audience of children to talk about planets where "rape ganga" dominate, in which case I apologize.

I think TNG sort of became know as a family show. I think TOS was made with young adults in mind. The hippies in essence. DS9 was also I think aimed more at young adults. TNG I think was the one that went all in on the idea of the whole family watching it together.

 

[Rahul]

There it is again, this notion that in order to portray LGBTQ+ characters you somehow need an “adult oriented show” that’s able to show sex scenes, nudity etc. I know, you’re saying that you think that’s how Discovery’s producers were seeing their own show, but to me it kinda reads like you support or justify this false notion. Or am I misunderstanding?

Frankly, I'm simply fed up with this stupid, unaware history revisionism.
"How could Star Trek have ever been liberal if Kirk was a straight, white dude, and not a strong black woman!?"
Because that's what's the norm, in this culture, at that time. They could only break it so much, and Uhura did.

Modern Star Wars or Marvel still don't have a LBGTQ main character. And frankly, the first gay "Fast & Furious" character will have a much bigger impact than DIS' representation ever will.

I don't expect for Star Trek to break all the ceilings all the time. I'm happy they did a few times, and grateful they generally steered in the right direction in society. I'm not going to hold people from the past to today's standard, and find the idea quite ludicrous to be honest.

 

[Michael]

Frankly, I'm simply fed up with this stupid, unaware history revisionism.
"How could Star Trek have ever been liberal if Kirk was a straight, white dude, and not a strong black woman!?"
Because that's what's the norm, in this culture, at that time. They could only break it so much, and Uhura did.

Modern Star Wars or Marvel still don't have a LBGTQ main character. And frankly, the first gay "Fast & Furious" character will have a much bigger impact than DIS' representation ever will.

I don't expect for Star Trek to break all the ceilings all the time. I'm happy they did a few times, and grateful they generally steered in the right direction in society. I'm not going to hold people from the past to today's standard, and find the idea quite ludicrous to be honest.

What? How is any of that a response to what I asked? I wasn’t trying do any sort of revisionism. I was merely challenging the notion that in order to include LGBTQ+ characters you’d have to do an “adult oriented show” or have “sex scenes”, as you said earlier. I’ll gladly repeat: You don’t need to have “sex scenes” to establish a character as homosexual.

 

[Rahul]

What? How is any of that a response to what I asked? I wasn’t trying do any sort of revisionism. I was merely challenging the notion that in order to include LGBTQ+ characters you’d have to do an “adult oriented show” or have “sex scenes”, as you said earlier. I’ll gladly repeat: You don’t need to have “sex scenes” to establish a character as homosexual.

How is any of that a response to what I said? You are the one constantly mentioning "sex scenes". Obsessively so, to be honest. Not me.

 

[Michael]

How is any of that a response to what I said? You are the one constantly mentioning "sex scenes". Obsessively so, to be honest. Not me.

Excuse me? You brought them up first here.

And you did so in a way that heavily implied that you’d need one to have LGBTQ+ representation. I’m sorry, but that’s total bullshit.

 

[Rahul]

Excuse me? You brought them up first here.

And you did so in a way that heavily implied that you’d need one to have LGBTQ+ representation. I’m sorry, but that’s total bullshit.

Jesus, are you even listening to yourself?
My quote that you linked to is this:

Giving Trek the benefit of doubt here:
'Old' Star Trek had a very, very low level of "sex & relationships" in general. TOS & TNG Season 1 (with one(!) implied sex scene between main characters!) the most. But there's barely more than one relationship on each SHOW, during each entire runtime, and even Kirk gets a lot less action than pop culture makes it seem.
[...]

And THAT is for you:

you did so in a way that heavily implied that you’d need one [sex scene] to have LGBTQ+ representation.

That's not good reading comprehension.

The one that's hyperfocused on bringing explicitly sex scenes up (and sex scenes only) & then shaming others for it, is you.

Just tell me, how are you going to tackly any LGBTQ topics while completely sweeping "sex and relationships" under the table? It's kind of central to the topic? At least one of the two at minimum?

These posts give very bad kink-shaming vibes against normies.

 

[The Wormhole]

if DIS would have been a syndicated show, not a streaming show, we still wouldn't have had our first gay main characters in Trek.

Disco would never have been a syndicated show as first run syndication isn't really a thing anymore on TV. If it were a network show, than I see no reason why Stamets and Culber couldn't be there.

Star Trek also has a very large, very conservative following. Yes, it's a largely liberal vision of the future. But it also resonates with people in the military, American exceptionalism, and sci-fi fans in general tend to be more white & male, both traditionally more conservative.

Meaning shows like "Sex & the city", "Greys anatomy" or something with a clearly liberal target demographic can easily show more "offending woke" stuff. Or foreign tv shows like doctor who.

What about NCIS? That's an American franchise that targets a conservative demographic and centers around the military, yet NCIS New Orleans had a gay character in its main cast while NCIS Hawai'i has a gay couple in its main cast. And it's produced by Paramount and airs on CBS.

"How could Star Trek have ever been liberal if Kirk was a straight, white dude, and not a strong black woman!?"
Because that's what's the norm, in this culture, at that time. They could only break it so much, and Uhura did.

Yeah, no. While you are right that we wouldn't have gotten a black female captain on 1960s television, Uhura did not "break the mold" at all. Even by the standards of black people on 1960s television, Uhura was very neglected.

 

[Oddish]

What about NCIS? That's an American franchise that targets a conservative demographic and centers around the military, yet NCIS New Orleans had a gay character in its main cast while NCIS Hawai'i has a gay couple in its main cast. And it's produced by Paramount and airs on CBS

And NCIS New Orleans didn't exist until 2014, and Hawaii in 2021. If they had come into being in 1992 or 1994, like DS9 and VOY, that might not have been the case.

 

[David cgc]

If nothing else, "Rejoined" gives credence to the idea that same sex attraction is a thing in the Star Trek universe.

If Lenara Khan was a dude and walked in, in a Vader suit and was grotesquely deformed, Dax would've probably been like, "that's okay, we can be friends".

I do remember Kira seeming very enthusiastic about the prospect of Jadzia and Lenara hooking back up, and Jadzia herself is excited that Pel is into Quark when she still thinks she's also a man in "Rules of Acquisition." I wouldn't call either moment ground-breaking (especially since it comes along with a sort of girl-talk, ladies-gossiping stereotype), but more like future-proofing the show. It'd be way more awkward watching those episodes now if there'd been any on-screen misgivings over the potential couple being same-sex.

 

[The Wormhole]

And NCIS New Orleans didn't exist until 2014, and Hawaii in 2021. If they had come into being in 1992 or 1994, like DS9 and VOY, that might not have been the case.

As true as that is, in the post I quoted Rahul was explaining why shows like Sex and the City, Grey's Anatomy and Doctor Who can get away with having gay characters. Since two of those three shows are still airing, I figured bringing shows from the "other side" politically speaking that do feature gay characters that are either currently airing or were airing in the past decade was fair game.

 

[Takeru]

That, a decade, a completely different corporate structure, delivery method of content and that it isn't as ad/affiliate dependent as old Star Trek used to be.

It is a completely different day, I'm glad we made it, but I have no interest in crucifying those of the past that were playing by different rules.

They weren't playing by different rules though, attitudes may have shifted but not rules and countless shows had LGBTQ characters before and during TNG-Enterprise.