Madame Web, go-go Marvel Fatigue!

[Kai "the spy"]

The way they're talking about this movie over and over again, it's becoming the Heaven's Gate of the 2020s. It's not just a film that failed at the box office, it's the cinematic embodiment of the very concept of failure.

Which is kind of undeserved, at least to this extent. Easy comparison, Argylle cost more than double of Madame Web's budget, has had two more weeks at the box office and still has made less, both domestically and internationally. And with far more star power, as well. Not trying to defend Madame Web, but it is interesting how narratives are formed.

 

[Jayson1]

But will Sony listen? I doubt it.

I think the bigger question is will Hollywood listen. The answer is if they keep loosing money then yes they will sort of listen. Though it's going to be awhile before we get another movie golden age like we had in the 70's and 90's.

 

[Gaith]

Which is kind of undeserved, at least to this extent. Easy comparison, Argylle cost more than double of Madame Web's budget, has had two more weeks at the box office and still has made less, both domestically and internationally. And with far more star power, as well. Not trying to defend Madame Web, but it is interesting how narratives are formed.

That's a fair point, though their global box office takes are pretty much tied currently, but one could also argue that the Marvel/Spider-Man of it all gives Web the greater star power.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

That's a fair point, though their global box office takes are pretty much tied currently, but one could also argue that the Marvel/Spider-Man of it all gives Web the greater star power.

Eh, it's not like Spider-Man was in the title. They didn't even put him in the background of the trailers, like they did with Morbius. And Madame Web is an even more obscure character, so a lot of people probably didn't make the connection.

On the other hand, Argylle had trailers with Cavill, Bryce Dallas Howard, Sam Rockwell, Samuel L. Jackson, Bryan Cranston, John Cena, Dua Lipa (who also provided music for the movie), hell, even Catherine O'Hara made the trailers, just in case some people recognized her from the Home Alone movies or Schitt's Creek. Not to mention Matthew Vaughn, who has a well-known filmography and far more of a following than first-time film director SJ Clarkson.

And, as I already mentioned, Argylle opened two weeks before Madame Web and has thus had that much more time to accumulate box office results.

And, again, I'm not trying to make Madame Web look good. I haven't even seen the movie, and honestly, I'm not planning to. I have no skin in the game whatsoever. Madame Web will lose money for Sony. But not nearly as much as Argylle will for Apple and/or Universal (who handled Argylle's theatrical distribution, so it depends on the details of the contract between them and Apple).
And yet, there were no jokes at Argylle's expense at the Oscars. No ongoing stream of entertainment news articles and opinion pieces.

The way I see it, the Spider-Man connection actually hurt the movie's profile, because while it didn't attract a big audience, it certainly attracted the attention of entertainment news.

 

[Jayson1]

That is because Argylle looks like it could have been a good movie. Vaughn as director. Top notch cast. Madame Web feels like something doomed from conception. The joke isn't just about how bad it might be but that someone thought it was a good idea to even make it.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

It’s almost an argument against complete superhero fatigue because otherwise why would so many people be interested in dogging it? It’s like a dare to give something that the people can care about in the genre. If people had no interest in the genre it seems it would just disappear without note.

Speaking of Argylle, Madame Web didn't even lose as much money as The Marvels. The Marvels made $206M off a reported $270+M budget for a loss of $64M at the box office. Madame Web has made $96M against an $80M budget and so is $16M towards being in the black. The shit box office is apparently a bigger story than the balance sheet.

Personally, I blame Martin Scorsese's comments on Marvel in 2019 whereafter they started courting indie darlings to come make their experiments with comic book movies.

 

[Jayson1]

It’s almost an argument against complete superhero fatigue because otherwise why would so many people be interested in dogging it? It’s like a dare to give something that the people can care about in the genre. If people had no interest in the genre it seems it would just disappear without note.

Speaking of Argylle, Madame Web didn't even lose as much money as The Marvels. The Marvels made $206M off a reported $270+M budget for a loss of $64M at the box office. Madame Web has made $96M against an $80M budget and so is $16M towards being in the black. The shit box office is apparently a bigger story than the balance sheet.

Personally, I blame Martin Scorsese's comments on Marvel in 2019 whereafter they started courting indie darlings to come make their experiments with comic book movies.

Also I think the movie is made fun of, in part because it's a extensions of Sony's maybe not so great idea of doing Spider-man movies that don't have Spider-man in them. They have been to encouraged from the success of the Venom movies, which really only works because of how fun it is watching Tom Hardy chew the scenery. I fully expect the Kraven move to be the next failure in this regards right next to Mobius and Madame Webb, though that one at least looks like it might be passable but not so great that I am"WOW! I got to see this movie when it comes out!."

 

[Skipper]

I fully expect the Kraven move to be the next failure in this regards right next to Mobius and Madame Webb, though that one at least looks like it might be passable but not so great that I am"WOW! I got to see this movie when it comes out!."

The sad thing is that at least in theory the ideas behind these films are good. With Morbious you could have made a great film for example. A person suffering from a rare disease who becomes an artificial vampire to cure himself and must drink blood to continue living, with all the moral implications of the case.. But at Sony they specialize in disastrous realizations of good concepts.

 

[Tosk]

The sad thing is that at least in theory the ideas behind these films are good.

Yeah, because the ideas come from comics that people liked. (To varying degrees.)
Sony don't seem capable of even accidentally making a good movie out of these so far. Not to say there's been nothing of value, but even the best of these things has only been "okay".

 

[Skipper]

Yeah, because the ideas come from comics that people liked. (To varying degrees.)
Sony don't seem capable of even accidentally making a good movie out of these so far. Not to say there's been nothing of value, but even the best of these things has only been "okay".

And unfortunately they are too expensive to be just "okay" (even if they are less expensive than the Marvel ones)

 

[Gaith]

That is because Argylle looks like it could have been a good movie. Vaughn as director. Top notch cast. Madame Web feels like something doomed from conception. The joke isn't just about how bad it might be but that someone thought it was a good idea to even make it.

That's a good point. It's more fun to dump on cynical franchise cash grabs than attempts at making an original movie that's not part of a franchise.

It’s almost an argument against complete superhero fatigue because otherwise why would so many people be interested in dogging it? It’s like a dare to give something that the people can care about in the genre. If people had no interest in the genre it seems it would just disappear without note.

Superhero movies get an outsized amount of attention, thus people + the press complain about oversaturation and fatigue, thus weird flops like this get singled out for mockery, thus leading to a pile-on in which everyone has fun taking their turn at whacking the piñata, thus leading to outsized attention for superhero movies, thus leading to complaints about oversaturation and fatigue. It's a wacky circle of snark.

 

[Anwar]

That is because Argylle looks like it could have been a good movie. Vaughn as director. Top notch cast. Madame Web feels like something doomed from conception. The joke isn't just about how bad it might be but that someone thought it was a good idea to even make it.

To be fair, they said that about the Guardians of the Galaxy and Shang Chi too...

 

[Skipper]

To be fair, they said that about the Guardians of the Galaxy and Shang Chi too...

Yeah, I don't see anything particularly bad about the concept of Madame Web. A mentor with limited prescient abilities who guides 3 spider-themed heroines. Honestly, it doesn't strike me (on paper) as anything so inherently awful.

 

[Gaith]

^ The thing is, in a popcorn movie, wouldn't focusing on the spider-heroines, as in the ones who can actually do the fighting and the swinging (with Web being a supporting character), be more fun? Or, if the movie had to be about a woman with precognition protecting three younger women, why did said women have to be future spider-heroines at all? Teasing spider-heroines in the advertising, but then barely featuring them in the movie itself, was always likely to make for disappointment poor buzz. And, if the idea is for these heroines to potentially meet up with Spider-Man someday, why set the story before Peter Parker's even born? Wouldn't it make more sense to set in the present day, but maybe in a different city, to allow for a potential crossover with Holland/Garfield/whoever?

Of course, none of this meant the movie was destined to be as bad as it was, but Sony certainly loaded down their picnic basket with a number of useless bricks, metaphorically speaking.

 

[fireproof78]

Yes, because we had to show Spider-Man as the chosen one

 

[Jayson1]

Yeah, I don't see anything particularly bad about the concept of Madame Web. A mentor with limited prescient abilities who guides 3 spider-themed heroines. Honestly, it doesn't strike me (on paper) as anything so inherently awful.

No Spider-Man
Nobody except comic book fans knows the character and even then by making her younger your not even coming close to honoring the source material.
Your main star is someone who has still not escaped the problem of being in those Fifty Shades of Grey movies.
A all girl team up is like 2 to 3 years past being original.

For it to work they should have at least made the lead a old women like in the comics because that would be a fresh take on a comic book movie.

 

[JD]

That's a good point. It's more fun to dump on cynical franchise cash grabs than attempts at making an original movie that's not part of a franchise.

Technically Argylle is not an original movie, it was based on a novel. And fun fact, there's a conspiracy theory going around that the novel was actually secretly written by Taylor Swift using a pen name.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Technically Argylle is not an original movie, it was based on a novel. And fun fact, there's a conspiracy theory going around that the novel was actually secretly written by Taylor Swift using a pen name.

There's also a conspiracy theory going around that Taylor Swift is part of a CIA psyop actively working to get Joe Biden re-elected. People don't seem to think clearly where Taylor Swift is involved.

 

[JD]

So basically everything happening everywhere is somehow connected to Taylor Swift?

 

[Nerys Myk]

So basically everything happening everywhere is somehow connected to Taylor Swift?

She is both the cause and the cure for Global Warming