This show has been on my radar for a long time now. After such a strong recommendation, I think I have to watch it now.
Spoilers "Star Trek: Picard" and "12 Monkeys" Comparisons
- Thread starter Lord Garth
- Start date
As a Time Travel series, it's still very much undisputed for me -- and I've watched several including Dr Who. Terry Matalas just uses time travel really, really well.
'Hey, Asshole. It's Future Asshole.' I love that so, so much. It is the benefit too, of filming the last two seasons together, this was something TM pitched to Kurtzman but was turned down since they apparently viewed Picard as a kind of anthology type show. (This was mentioned in Cirroc Lofton's show).
I feel the Jurati - Borg Queen stuff was some of the threads that remained after Matalas stepped back to write and produce season 3, for me, I feel the dividing moment between the Matalas produced season 2 and the Akiva Goldsman season 2, the first half felt propulsive and compelling and then suddenly (for me) season 2 slows down, only to pick up in the last 2 episodes. I also try to give season 2 some leeway because it was produced in the middle of a pandemic.
It could be amazing... and the constraints of a lower budget compared to say PICARD season 1 or SNW might be a good trade off for more creative freedom and less executive interference, especially with more lead time to plan.
Matalas has been pretty open about season 2 originally having far more SF elements, that were then hammered out of it. This could be one area where that happened.
Matalas has shared parts of the pre-Monkeys adaption version of his pilot, where the Cole equivalent grabs the Cassie equivalent and shoves her into a white van. The final product plays more like the original scriot than the film.
One reason I really wanted you to skip the film is it would have ruined the Cole, Cassie, and Hannah at the airport scene at the end. Instead you'd be thinking oh that's where that came from. I'm really glad I saw that with fresh eyes and no knowledge of the film's ending.
Haha, now maybe watch COUNTERPART. No direct Star Trek connections (well, save a Jeff Russo score), but it's another recent gente séries that fell under many people's radar.
And, there's always the 13 episodes of MACGYVER Matalas ran (Jeri Ryan guest stars, a few Monkeys show up...)...
Also Athan Prime, Raritan IV, the temporal radiation named after Drs Lasky and Adler, Spearhead Operations, and, of course, Jack Crusher's James Cole alias. And that's just from memory months down the line.
It's crazy how time seems to have elevated the relative mediocrity of INS...If you told me back then I'd actually be looking forward to another "TNG Movie" in 20 years, I never would've believed you. The only one I liked was First Contact. But Terry Matalas gave Generations and Nemesis the middle-finger.
Terry's influenced definitely waned around the heist episode. Although they also had a change in studio executives around this time, which also contributed to the changes. I'm really looking forward to a behind the scenes account of that season's production.
Finished re-re-watching Picard S2E2 and S2E3. Some comparison to 12 Monkeys here. Things that you'll only pick up if you're familiar with both shows.
1. Raffi losing Elnor, in a ton of grief, and being determined to get him back. That's the same as Ramsii losing his son, feeling a ton of grief, and being determined to get him back.
2. Rios ending up in a hospital and being healed by Teresa before they're raided by ICE. I can't pin that down to any one particular 12 Monkeys story, but it feels 12 Monkeys-ish. My first instinct was to say that Rios would be like Cole, but that's not true. Rios would be Ramsii. They're both Hispanic and both would be in huge trouble if ICE came knocking. Also, Ramsii spent some time in prison while in the past (that's as much as I'm spoiling) and Rios ends up detained.
3. Picard trying to figure out what caused the rift in time and everyone being furious at him keeping the Borg Queen alive because they need her to figure out what's going on. Katrina Jones would be making all the same decisions Picard did and everyone on 12 Monkeys would be just as mad at her as everyone on Picard is mad at him.
----- CONSOLIDATING POSTS -----
Just re-re-watched Picard S2E4 and S2E5 back-to-back. Some things to untangle here as it relates to The 12 Monkeys. I'm going to go into things I haven't gone into before.
Dr. Adam Soong being a geneticist and trying to cure his daughter, Kore. I think Adam being a geneticist is someone parallel to Railly being a doctor. Cutting off funding for Soong's research is similar to Railly losing her practice. But I think the similarity stops there. After that, the writers drew from Enterprise. Arik Soong in ENT was a geneticist, so it guess being a geneticist runs in the family.
When Seven and Raffi hijack the cop car, that's straight out of something Cole and Ramsii would've done. Following by the car chase. Then they'd stop right as they'd be Splintered back to the 2040s.
Strange as this might sound, I think Tallinn might actually be the good version of Olivia. Instead of looking over Humanity's decimation, Tallinn looks over Humanity's protection.
Nice cover saying that recorded events in the century leading up to First Contact are fragmentary. That's all it is though, a cover. After watching The 12 Monkeys, I bet Terry Matalas mapped out EVERYTHING that would've happened if Renee Picard didn't make the flight. It's probably some long convoluted thing that would make total sense if Terry had 47 episodes to work with. But he didn't, so he left it vague. I think I can see what Terry Matalas was trying not to delve into, but he has to remember he was writing for an audience who may not be familiar with his other work. So he should've explained something so said audience would understand -- on some level -- why there was a cause-and-effect and not just that there was one. That particular lack of connection is the first true weak point in the season. I still enjoy watching it, but it's something I have to point out.
I should probably say again, in case it got lost in the sea of earlier posts, that La Sirena's crew infiltrating the gala is as 12 Monkeys as it gets.
EDITED TO ADD: I'm on S2E8 now. Yeah, I've enough free time to watch a bunch today. It took me until my third time watching the second season to catch onto this, but Jurati Borg Queen tells Dr. Soong that Renee Picard's discovery on her mission will make his work obsolete. How his work leads to the forming of the Confederation I don't know, so my point stands, but at least it's the tiniest bit of something.
BTW, when the second season was originally airing, I thought they'd do more with Wells (Jay Karnes), like he'd show up in the season finale or something, I don't know what, but I imagined helping to save the day. Jay Karnes' character Agent Robert Gale does in The 12 Monkeys would I thought Wells would be doing in Picard Season 2. But, on the other hand, it wouldn't make much sense for Karnes' to be able to do anything against Borg. He'd be way out of his depth. So the quiet story Wells confronting his past just like Picard is confronting his own past works for the type of story they're trying to tell here.
DOUBLE-EDIT: Finished with Season 2! I only have two more observations relevant to The 12 Monkeys for this season: One is spoiler for the end 12M so I'll put it in a Spoiler Tag. If you want to watch the series and want to avoid serious spoilers, then don't click on this:
Then the other observation: "Renee Picard has to both live and die!" sounds like a very 12 Monkeys type of plot device.
And that's it. Now I've seen PIC S2 through the perspective of being a 12M Fan and it went up a little. Also, watching it a third time in general made it go up. Once you know what it is, and that most of the season will be in the 21st Century, you can enjoy it on its own terms. I also liked some of the actors getting to play different characters, which gave them more to do. Kore works as a stand-in for Dajh/Soji. Tallinn is proof that Laris was underused in Picard. Brent Spiner makes for a great villain as Adam Soong.
1. Raffi losing Elnor, in a ton of grief, and being determined to get him back. That's the same as Ramsii losing his son, feeling a ton of grief, and being determined to get him back.
2. Rios ending up in a hospital and being healed by Teresa before they're raided by ICE. I can't pin that down to any one particular 12 Monkeys story, but it feels 12 Monkeys-ish. My first instinct was to say that Rios would be like Cole, but that's not true. Rios would be Ramsii. They're both Hispanic and both would be in huge trouble if ICE came knocking. Also, Ramsii spent some time in prison while in the past (that's as much as I'm spoiling) and Rios ends up detained.
3. Picard trying to figure out what caused the rift in time and everyone being furious at him keeping the Borg Queen alive because they need her to figure out what's going on. Katrina Jones would be making all the same decisions Picard did and everyone on 12 Monkeys would be just as mad at her as everyone on Picard is mad at him.
----- CONSOLIDATING POSTS -----
Just re-re-watched Picard S2E4 and S2E5 back-to-back. Some things to untangle here as it relates to The 12 Monkeys. I'm going to go into things I haven't gone into before.
Dr. Adam Soong being a geneticist and trying to cure his daughter, Kore. I think Adam being a geneticist is someone parallel to Railly being a doctor. Cutting off funding for Soong's research is similar to Railly losing her practice. But I think the similarity stops there. After that, the writers drew from Enterprise. Arik Soong in ENT was a geneticist, so it guess being a geneticist runs in the family.
When Seven and Raffi hijack the cop car, that's straight out of something Cole and Ramsii would've done. Following by the car chase. Then they'd stop right as they'd be Splintered back to the 2040s.
Strange as this might sound, I think Tallinn might actually be the good version of Olivia. Instead of looking over Humanity's decimation, Tallinn looks over Humanity's protection.
Nice cover saying that recorded events in the century leading up to First Contact are fragmentary. That's all it is though, a cover. After watching The 12 Monkeys, I bet Terry Matalas mapped out EVERYTHING that would've happened if Renee Picard didn't make the flight. It's probably some long convoluted thing that would make total sense if Terry had 47 episodes to work with. But he didn't, so he left it vague. I think I can see what Terry Matalas was trying not to delve into, but he has to remember he was writing for an audience who may not be familiar with his other work. So he should've explained something so said audience would understand -- on some level -- why there was a cause-and-effect and not just that there was one. That particular lack of connection is the first true weak point in the season. I still enjoy watching it, but it's something I have to point out.
I should probably say again, in case it got lost in the sea of earlier posts, that La Sirena's crew infiltrating the gala is as 12 Monkeys as it gets.
EDITED TO ADD: I'm on S2E8 now. Yeah, I've enough free time to watch a bunch today. It took me until my third time watching the second season to catch onto this, but Jurati Borg Queen tells Dr. Soong that Renee Picard's discovery on her mission will make his work obsolete. How his work leads to the forming of the Confederation I don't know, so my point stands, but at least it's the tiniest bit of something.
BTW, when the second season was originally airing, I thought they'd do more with Wells (Jay Karnes), like he'd show up in the season finale or something, I don't know what, but I imagined helping to save the day. Jay Karnes' character Agent Robert Gale does in The 12 Monkeys would I thought Wells would be doing in Picard Season 2. But, on the other hand, it wouldn't make much sense for Karnes' to be able to do anything against Borg. He'd be way out of his depth. So the quiet story Wells confronting his past just like Picard is confronting his own past works for the type of story they're trying to tell here.
DOUBLE-EDIT: Finished with Season 2! I only have two more observations relevant to The 12 Monkeys for this season: One is spoiler for the end 12M so I'll put it in a Spoiler Tag. If you want to watch the series and want to avoid serious spoilers, then don't click on this:
Cole and Railly living Happily Ever After is like Rios and Teresa living Happily Ever After.
Then the other observation: "Renee Picard has to both live and die!" sounds like a very 12 Monkeys type of plot device.
And that's it. Now I've seen PIC S2 through the perspective of being a 12M Fan and it went up a little. Also, watching it a third time in general made it go up. Once you know what it is, and that most of the season will be in the 21st Century, you can enjoy it on its own terms. I also liked some of the actors getting to play different characters, which gave them more to do. Kore works as a stand-in for Dajh/Soji. Tallinn is proof that Laris was underused in Picard. Brent Spiner makes for a great villain as Adam Soong.
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I just finished binging Picard Season 3. The whole thing in under 24 hours. I watched the first three episodes last night in the wee hours of the morning. Went to bed. Got up, showered, shaved, brushed my teeth, got dressed, had coffee, did the usual routine, then put on the next five episodes. Took a break, went for a walk, did some shopping, then put on the last two.
How do I rate these episodes? I gave Season 1 an average of 9.1 and Season 2 an average of 8.05. Let's round S2 up to an 8.1.
"The Next Generation" - 9
"Disengage" - 9
"Seventeen Seconds" - 9
"No Win Scenario" - 10
"Imposters" - 10
"The Bounty" - 8
"Dominion" - 9
"Surrender" - 9
"Vox" - 9
"The Last Generation" - 10
Average: 9.2
So this is how I rank the three seasons of Picard:
Season 3 --> 9.2
Season 1 --> 9.1
Season 2 --> 8.1
Series Average --> 8.8
I'll go ahead and say it: I think the third season is the best season of Picard. It's probably a "Controversial Opinion" on TrekBBS, but it's my opinion nonetheless.
[EDITED TO ADD: When I re-watch The 12 Monkeys, I'll rate those episodes on a 10-scale as well. Make the comparison complete.]
Anyway, that's enough of that. Onto 12 Monkeys comparisons that I noticed for the third season:
1. The Red Door that Jack sees reminds me of the Red Forest.
2. Shaw hums "Don't You Forget About Me", though you can barely make it out.
3. Sneed (the Ferengi Gangster) and Krinn (the Vulcan Gangster) were played by the same actors who played Cole and Ramsii respectively. Sneed and Krinn both consider each other "brothers" and they used to be Scavengers just like Cole and Ramsii. They mentioned Splinters as well, although it means something else here.
Those are the main things that stick out to me.
I think they'll probably use time-travel to bring back Shaw. This is speculation only. Snatch him from right before he dies, then send him back after whatever mission.
What do my fellow 12M fans think?
How do I rate these episodes? I gave Season 1 an average of 9.1 and Season 2 an average of 8.05. Let's round S2 up to an 8.1.
"The Next Generation" - 9
"Disengage" - 9
"Seventeen Seconds" - 9
"No Win Scenario" - 10
"Imposters" - 10
"The Bounty" - 8
"Dominion" - 9
"Surrender" - 9
"Vox" - 9
"The Last Generation" - 10
Average: 9.2
So this is how I rank the three seasons of Picard:
Season 3 --> 9.2
Season 1 --> 9.1
Season 2 --> 8.1
Series Average --> 8.8
I'll go ahead and say it: I think the third season is the best season of Picard. It's probably a "Controversial Opinion" on TrekBBS, but it's my opinion nonetheless.
[EDITED TO ADD: When I re-watch The 12 Monkeys, I'll rate those episodes on a 10-scale as well. Make the comparison complete.]
Anyway, that's enough of that. Onto 12 Monkeys comparisons that I noticed for the third season:
1. The Red Door that Jack sees reminds me of the Red Forest.
2. Shaw hums "Don't You Forget About Me", though you can barely make it out.
3. Sneed (the Ferengi Gangster) and Krinn (the Vulcan Gangster) were played by the same actors who played Cole and Ramsii respectively. Sneed and Krinn both consider each other "brothers" and they used to be Scavengers just like Cole and Ramsii. They mentioned Splinters as well, although it means something else here.
Those are the main things that stick out to me.
I think they'll probably use time-travel to bring back Shaw. This is speculation only. Snatch him from right before he dies, then send him back after whatever mission.
Just like what happened with Ramsii.
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I really didn't like how that Raffi plot point was implemented (and it was my introduction to the character as I hadn't then seen season 1), but maybe the basic idea could be linked, as episode co-writer Christopher Monfette was on all four seasons of 12M.
I know how controversial that plot was, so I'll just say that Terry Matalas is quoted in an interview saying earlier versions were both much lighter and also darker, reflecting "Past Tense". The story was co-written by Travis Fickett, co-creator and co-showrunner of 12M.
Good link...
It probably made much more sense before the story was revised to the Nth degree.
Season 2 was supposed to feature many more aliens on Earth before the suits got involved. Wells is probably just the stub of a cut off branch, and he was likely already under contract so was used anyway.
Christopher Monfette wrote the original ending, which was then revised to the point Akiva Goldsman has an "and"writing credit.
Very much so...
Oh wow, I didn't catch that one...
I'm thinking it's something more Borg related, a la "Mortal Coil".
I think you're right. The correlation between the two looks like there's something there that I can extrapolate from, so there had to have been more there.
"You can't spend that much money!" "Narrow down the focus!" It's unfortunate. It's pretty bad when, even before seeing The 12 Monkeys, I could tell they should've been doing more with Wells.
Contrary to a lot of people here, I think Picard should've had 13-episode seasons instead of 10. Too much gets glossed over or cut down that I think shouldn't have been. Plus it would help to make the transition between seasons smoother.
Three things in Season 3 that I think definitely should've happened but didn't because there wasn't enough time or money or whatever other reasons:
1. Janeway should've made an appearance. They mentioned her enough. It looks like she should've been there and it wouldn't have been out-of-place.
2. There should've been a scene between Data and Soji. Data should meet his child, the same way Picard met his.
3. Is Picard still with Laris at the end? Is he not? If this is potentially the last we'll see of Picard, that should've been made clear.
None of this effects my enjoyment of the season, but I think they should've had them.
Toward the beginning of "Imposters" when they're all getting onto the turbolift to "face the music". Todd Stashwick makes it sound just off enough so that there's plausible deniability.
That would mess with Shaw's head enough so that he wouldn't be fit to command. So that works, and still keeps Seven of Nine as Captain. And it would give Todd Stashwick a great chance to stretch his acting muscles.
The one and only reservation I have about this is Star Trek's stance on the Afterlife. Gene Roddenberry was an atheist. TOS and TNG were atheist. I'm agnostic, so technically not atheist, but my stance is "I won't know what the Afterlife is like until I die, and I'm not in a hurry to die." Shaw will have died, so he does know. But he'll never be allowed to say. Neelix says there's nothing, then they try to soften blow during the rest of "Mortal Coil". So either Shaw says there's nothing and offends lots of viewers, or he says there's something and offends several more because it's not their religion. The only thing that really works is Shaw experiences something, but he can't remember what it is anymore, and -- if he does remember -- it mirrors what others have said IRL after they had brushes with death.
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Bumping this to say I just ordered the complete series on Blu-Ray through Amazon.
This is a pretty huge deal because in most cases, I'm happy to stick with just streaming. Not including the Star Trek series or anime, the only other complete series I have on DVD or Blu-Ray are Mad Men, Sliders, and The X-Files. So it's a pretty small, exclusive list, and The 12 Monkeys has made it onto that list!
This is a pretty huge deal because in most cases, I'm happy to stick with just streaming. Not including the Star Trek series or anime, the only other complete series I have on DVD or Blu-Ray are Mad Men, Sliders, and The X-Files. So it's a pretty small, exclusive list, and The 12 Monkeys has made it onto that list!
The Mill Creek one? You have some great deleted scenes and (canon) webisodes coming your way... Unfortunately only the behind the scenes SyFy content from season 2 made it. Rest is scattered over YouTube and might still be on the SyFy site.
If you really want to go down the rabbit hole beyond episode commentaries, Terry Matalas, other writers, and production people all extensively contributed to a fan podcast during the 2020 downtime. More details at the main fansite.
The one that looks like this, which I'm guessing is the Mill Creek release.
Amazon.com: 12 Monkeys - The Complete Series [Blu-ray] : Aaron Stanford, Amanda Schull, Emily Hampshire, Terry Matalas: Movies & TV
Thanks!
Need?
It's a title but I do agree with the recommendation as a 12 Monkeys fan. You can watch or not, personally, if you like time travel and sci fi stories and strong characters, I always recommend 12 Monkeys. The first season is the weakest since its table setting, second season is where the show finds its feet. Dr Katarina Jones is one of my favorite morally gray characters. Cassie is my other favorite and Jennifer Goines is just fantastic especially once she gets cooking.
And then the show comes back around again to its first season.
And then the show comes back around again to its first season.
Well, the last two better be top tier fantastic because the first is rough.
The first season is so much better on the rewatch, it's crazy! The second season for me is about 3 episodes too long.
How far into the series did you get?
Honestly! Yes! Especially once we get all the context! I watched episode 8 of the last season and put on an episode 8 of the first season and with context, my mind was blown. Because on first watch, I didn’t question it, but knowing all the context and going back to it? My jaw dropped.
Terry Matalas has announced that the Star Trek Las Vegas convention in August will have a 12 MONKEYS component with several cast member appearances.
Wish I could go to that! Sounds like it'll be a lot of fun. If anything, it's a good way to expose fans of Picard to 12 Monkeys if they haven't seen it.
Starting my re-watch of 12 Monkeys on days when I'm not re-watching DS9. I've got a new thread going on in that forum. So anyone interested, feel free to join me over there. About to put DS9 on in 3, 2, 1...
Starting my re-watch of 12 Monkeys on days when I'm not re-watching DS9. I've got a new thread going on in that forum. So anyone interested, feel free to join me over there. About to put DS9 on in 3, 2, 1...
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I really wish I had the means to go there— it seems all so cool. 12 Monkeys and Trek!
Same here. Unfortunately my friends that lived in Las Vegas moved
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