How Messed Up is the Prime Directive?

[fireproof78]

Fox should be brought up on some sort of charges.

At least a violation of the Prime Directive. He is abrasive with Kirk:
KIRK: Code seven-ten means under no circumstances are we to approach that planet. No circumstances what so ever.
FOX: You will disregard that signal, Captain.
KIRK: Mister Fox, it is their planet.
FOX: Captain, in the past twenty years, thousands of lives have been lost in this quadrant. Lives that could have been saved if the Federation had a treaty port here. We mean to have that port and I'm here to get it.
KIRK: By disregarding code seven-ten, you might well involve us in an interplanetary war.
FOX: I'm quite prepared to take that risk.
KIRK: You are. I'm thinking about this ship, my crew.
FOX: I have my orders, Captain, and now you have yours. You will proceed on course. Achieve orbit status and just leave the rest to me. You're well aware that my mission gives me the power of command. I now exercise it. You will proceed on course. That's a direct order.

 

[UssGlenn]

They sent a Code 710, which was a warning to stay away. Technically, the Federation is an invader under those circumstances.

That's a good point, I forgot just how strong Kirk described it.

Vendikar sent a strongly worded letter. Eminiar was the one who was actually going to execute the crew.

Eminar was just following the directives of their agreement. Vendikar was the one who targeted the ship, responsibility lies with them.

Kirk was dead on accurate when he theorized that Fox would get them involved in an interplanetary war. Of course, if Fox violated the Prime Directive by ignoring Code 710, then Kirk is still off the hook, since Fox "broke the seal".

 

[Tenacity]

Of course, if Fox violated the Prime Directive by ignoring Code 710, then Kirk is still off the hook, since Fox "broke the seal".

But if Kirk has a obligation to not follow an illegal order, then he's right back on the hook.

 

[UssGlenn]

But if Kirk has a obligation to not follow an illegal order, then he's right back on the hook.

Who is going to prosecute? Traditionally, if you get in trouble for following an illegal order, the people who object would need to be the level above the person who gave you the order in the first place. But Fox is following his own orders to go to Eminar, which would be Federation council, or Presidential cabinet level. Who is going to object that Kirk followed Fox's orders?

 

[Tenacity]

Who is going to prosecute?

Starfleet.

 

[Tallguy]

Why are people thinking "code seven ten" is a prime directive issue? Also the first thing we hear about Eminar is that they are "advanced" and have had spaceflight for centuries.

Starfleet.

That would be like the U.S. Navy prosecuting the White House or Congress.

 

[Farscape One]

The Prime Directive also means not interfering in the internal affairs of another world... such as the Klingon Civil War in "Redemption II", or Sisko rejecting Winn's request for Starfleet troops in "SHAKAAR". Granted, that is more in line with TNG onward, but it's still an aspect of it.

I do agree, however, that the Prime Directive is not an issue in "A TASTE OF ARMAGEDDON". Fox was wrong to ignore the warning in the first place. (Perhaps that's also an unstated reason why he stayed to act as a mediator... he knows he'd probably get in some trouble back home for ignoring their warnings. Staying and helping a peace process might make him look more favorable to whoever he answers to in the Federation. In other words, he was trying to cover his ass.)

 

[Shawnster]

The Prime Directive also means not interfering in the internal affairs of another world... such as the Klingon Civil War in "Redemption II", or Sisko rejecting Winn's request for Starfleet troops in "SHAKAAR". Granted, that is more in line with TNG onward, but it's still an aspect of it.

I do agree, however, that the Prime Directive is not an issue in "A TASTE OF ARMAGEDDON". Fox was wrong to ignore the warning in the first place. (Perhaps that's also an unstated reason why he stayed to act as a mediator... he knows he'd probably get in some trouble back home for ignoring their warnings. Staying and helping a peace process might make him look more favorable to whoever he answers to in the Federation. In other words, he was trying to cover his ass.)

My understanding of the 23rd century interpretation of the PD only applies to pre-warp civilizations that are unaware of extra terrestrial or alien life.

SPOCK: Then the Prime Directive is in full force, Captain?
KIRK: No identification of self or mission. No interference with the social development of said planet.
MCCOY: No references to space, or the fact that there are other worlds, or more advanced civilisations.

Once a civilization becomes aware of alien intelligences, the PD no longer applies. On the other hand, other treaties and agreements would come into play. Politics. After all, trade agreements and relief missions or establishing mining rights are just as impactful as starship blockade or military involvement in the guise as peacekeepers or observers (or whatever US troops in Vietnam were called)

 

[BillJ]

Why are people thinking "code seven ten" is a prime directive issue? Also the first thing we hear about Eminar is that they are "advanced" and have had spaceflight for centuries.

It is an issue of sovereignty. Which, to me, would be included in the Prime Directive.

 

[BillJ]

It is an issue of sovereignty. Which, to me, would be included in the Prime Directive.

From "Friday's Child"...

The Earth Federation offers one other thing, Akaar. Our laws. And the highest of all our laws states that your world is yours and will always remain yours. This differs us from the Klingons. Their empire is made up of conquered worlds. They take what they want by arms and force.

The Star Trek Transcripts - Friday's Child (chakoteya.net)

 

[UssGlenn]

Capella is an interesting case, given their level of technology they should be unaware of the larger galaxy, and thus no contact allowed. We can surmise that at some point before McCoy was stationed there someone who wasn't Federation made landed there and filled them in. That knowledge didn't cause an existential crisis, so the Federation decided it was safe to go visit. I can only assume the medial aid offered was chronologically appropriate. How to set up a medical facility using their current level of technology, etc.

 

[drt]

Capella is an interesting case, given their level of technology they should be unaware of the larger galaxy, and thus no contact allowed. We can surmise that at some point before McCoy was stationed there someone who wasn't Federation made landed there and filled them in. That knowledge didn't cause an existential crisis, so the Federation decided it was safe to go visit. I can only assume the medial aid offered was chronologically appropriate. How to set up a medical facility using their current level of technology, etc.

The case with Neural is similar, it seems in that instance it was actually on whatever ship Kirk was serving made initial contact and determined the Prime Directive applied. That Kirk was knowledgeable about how to a Mugato bite needed treatment might indicate how they came into contact.

 

[UssGlenn]

The case with Neural is similar, it seems in that instance it was actually on whatever ship Kirk was serving made initial contact and determined the Prime Directive applied. That Kirk was knowledgeable about how to a Mugato bite needed treatment might indicate how they came into contact.

From the dialogue, it looks like only Tyree knew that Kirk was "from one of the lights in the sky" and was sworn to secrecy "I gave him my promise of silence". They also were forbidden from using their phasers. So on Neural, since they look human, it's just tell everyone you are a stranger from a far away land, and don't let them see your tech. So until the Klingons got there the Prime Directive was intact.

 

[Ovation]

Fox should be brought up on some sort of charges.

What is the penalty for being a popinjay anyway?

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Yes, we could give them the knowledge but would they respect it, use it and develop it for furtherance of their culture, or use it to empower and enslave?

The "don't peel open the cocoon, let the butterfly do it" argument?

SPOCK: Then the Prime Directive is in full force, Captain?
KIRK: No identification of self or mission. No interference with the social development of said planet.
MCCOY: No references to space, or the fact that there are other worlds, or more advanced civilisations.

Hmm, that seems to suggest that the Prime Directive has degrees of force. So sometime's it's "don't go there at all", sometime it's "don't tell them where you're really from/who you are/what you're doing/what they ought to change", sometimes it's "don't interfere in their private business, act as open honest observers".

 

[at Quark's]

I guess the Prime Directive is a lot more complicated than we generally give it credit for. After all, by the time of VOY it has 47 suborders. It may not have been that extensive in Kirk's time, but surely there was more to it than just 'pre-warp? Hands off!'.

 

[somebuddyX]

I don't mind the Prime Directive and I don't mind "Homeward." The point of that story was that those people were always going to die, Nikolai was going to save a few, and the crew had to deal with it. I'd just rejigger the story so that it was more apparent that the crew were under orders not to help and that they arrived too late to do anything about it anyway. Cut out the idea of Worf getting plastic surgery or have him interact with Nikolai some other way. I think the Prime Directive is a good idea and a response to all the stupid shit Star Trek captains get up to when they think know best what's for a planet. Blame John Gill or Ronald Tracey or even Archer and his armory officer for reminding why they need a law and why the Feds come down hard on people who break it.

 

[Mudd]

It's useless.

"To Hell with General Order One." - Christopher Pike

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

I guess the Prime Directive is a lot more complicated than we generally give it credit for. After all, by the time of VOY it has 47 suborders. It may not have been that extensive in Kirk's time, but surely there was more to it than just 'pre-warp? Hands off!'.

Perhaps the sub-orders were situation specific rules, enacted to deal with future occurrences of the scenarios which caused new wrinkles, as encountered by Kirk and others.

 

[BillJ]

It's useless.

"To Hell with General Order One." - Christopher Pike

Seems like a rule written by people who studied history but have no practical experience in the field.