Roddenberry and the Biblical Allusions in TOS.

[Christopher]

In my nerdier moments, I've been known to blurt out "By Crom!" or "By the Hoary Hosts of Hoggoth!"

At least among fellow fans.

Back in college, I made my lab partner laugh once by blurting out "Holy mother of fish!" Which I only subsequently realized was an accidental (or subconscious?) euphemism, because of the traditional use of of the fish as a symbol of Jesus.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Network push religion? No. Push back against blasphemy? Yes. So, for example, in TOS "Who Mourns for Adonais" the network did not approve of Kirk's line "Mankind has no need for gods" to end there, but required or requested it to be softened and not blasphemous. So, "We find the one quite adequate" was added.

Yet, the entire point of late 2nd season's "Bread and Circuses"--from Septimus and Flavius speaking of their belief (and in contrast to the false god-worshiping Romans) to the episode's coda with Uhura's revelation about the Son, that episode appeared to have been created with a very pointed message in mind. Episode writers Coon and Roddenberry did not need to adapt / write such a story at all (from Kneubuhl's original story), nor were they forced to by NBC. Further, if Gene "He was always a hardcore atheist!!!" Roddenberry had issues with a story that openly acknowledges Jesus's identity and His impact, one of his many changes to the script while it was shot probably would have removed or watered down the unambiguous name / legacy drop. Roddenberry could think on his feet, so he could have substituted Jesus with anyone (i.e., create a character for his fictional Roman planet), but the script, final cut and aired episode remained unchanged.

During this time there was nothing on television that was blatantly anti-christian.

Well, that depended on the perception of the audience member, of course; ABC's Bewitched (1964-72) and Dark Shadows (1966-71) were both accused by some conservative groups of not only promoting every dark, supernatural idea under the sun, but not professing (through characters) any real world religious beliefs (Shadows had the Trask family, but they were portrayed as fire & brimstone-styled zealots). Even so, the ABC brass did not agree, or accuse Bewitched's EP/co-creator Bill Asher or Dark Shadows' Dan Curtis of being anti-Christian, and did not attempt to add or promote real world faith and religion on their respective series.

Likewise, belly buttons could not be shown on TV

...about that...

That was another bit of G.R.'s blarney, albeit slightly tongue-in-cheek. In fact, NBC lifted the navel ban starting with Trek's second season. We saw women's belly buttons in "Mirror, Mirror," "A Private Little War," and "The Cloud Minders."

That, and I have not watched an episode of NBC's I Spy in some time, but I believed some women featured in location shoots had visible navels, but it was not concealed in various episodes of The Monkees (another NBC series).

 

[Shawnster]

Ok, we can discredit everyone and one up each other all we want, but does that mean 1960s television was not more conservative than today?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Back in college, I made my lab partner laugh once by blurting out "Holy mother of fish!" Which I only subsequently realized was an accidental (or subconscious?) euphemism, because of the traditional use of of the fish as a symbol of Jesus.

So this would not necessarily indicate a belief in Cod, then?

 

[Greg Cox]

That, and I have not watched an episode of NBC's I Spy in some time, but I believed some women featured in location shoots had visible navels, but it was not concealed in various episodes of The Monkees (another NBC series).

As I understand it, the first navel bared on American TV belonged to Yvette Mimieux in a 1964 episode of DR. KILDARE.

Like many STAR TREK myths, the notion that you could never show navels on American TV back then has been exaggerated over the years. There's a germ of truth here -- it was apparently a frequent bone of contention with network censors -- but various shows, including TOS, got away with it sometimes.

(By coincidence, just the other day, I stumbled onto a still from an old BATMAN episode in which the Joker's surfer-chick accomplice was proudly barring her belly-button.)

I harp on this only because I'm forever seeing folks (not just Shawnster, specifically) perpetuating the myth that STAR TREK was never, ever allowed to show a belly-button . . . usually whenever Mariette Hartley is mentioned.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

In Vonda MacIntyre's Trek books characters exclaim "gods...", instead of "God...". Apparently this is to show how totally distanced 23rd century society is from any current western-style theistic belief.

I remember that. She wrote the novelization to The Wrath of Khan. Nicholas Meyer had done an uncredited, complete rewrite of the script, and I'm sure the "plural, lower-case gods" construct came from him. In the film, McCoy says "gods' sakes" when the unsuspecting eel comes out of Chekov's head for some air.

Sakes wouldn't be plural if there weren't multiple gods. I'll bet Deforest Kelley pushed back on that stupid phrase, and Meyer told him No, do it my way.

Later, the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica took that construct and ran hard with it.

 

[Henoch]

As I understand it, the first navel bared on American TV belonged to Yvette Mimieux in a 1964 episode of DR. KILDARE.

Don't know if the first aired, but definitely bared:

 

[mb22]

(By coincidence, just the other day, I stumbled onto a still from an old BATMAN episode in which the Joker's surfer-chick accomplice was proudly barring her belly-button.)

That episode was aired in November 1967, concurrent with Trek's second season, when the navels began appearing. Someone with two much time on their hands should do an analysis of how many navels appeared before 1967.

 

[mb22]

I remember that. She wrote the novelization to The Wrath of Khan. Nicholas Meyer had done an uncredited, complete rewrite of the script, and I'm sure the "plural, lower-case gods" construct came from him. In the film, McCoy says "gods' sakes" when the unsuspecting eel comes out of Chekov's head for some air.

Sakes wouldn't be plural if there weren't multiple gods. I'll bet Deforest Kelley pushed back on that stupid phrase, and Meyer told him No, do it my way.

Later, the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica took that construct and ran hard with it.

I checked the Khan script found online. All references have "God" with a capital, unlike the novelization. The plural lower case "gods" is also used in her (very much expanded) novelization of The Search for Spock as well (see here). However, the Voyage Home novelization only has "God" used. I recall reading that there was tighter editorial control on that book, resulting in fewer authorial idiosyncrasies and non-script material.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

McCoy said "Lord forgive me" in the first episode broadcast. Said "dear Lord" in TWOK.

Either he was talking about Jack Lord or he was a man of some faith.

Nope.

Many are the atheists who say, "Oh my God!" It's an English language idiom and interjection phrase. It has its own TLA: OMG. No religious significance is necessitated by its usage. Ditto the two examples you gave, as well as "Dear God!", "Thank God!", and even "Saints, preserve us!"

(I see I'm late to the party.)

 

[fireproof78]

People say "Jesus Christ" all the time as a swear.

It's strange.

 

[Poltargyst]

I remember that. She wrote the novelization to The Wrath of Khan. Nicholas Meyer had done an uncredited, complete rewrite of the script, and I'm sure the "plural, lower-case gods" construct came from him. In the film, McCoy says "gods' sakes" when the unsuspecting eel comes out of Chekov's head for some air.

Sakes wouldn't be plural if there weren't multiple gods. I'll bet Deforest Kelley pushed back on that stupid phrase, and Meyer told him No, do it my way.

Later, the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica took that construct and ran hard with it.

Why is "gods' sakes" any more or less stupid than any other expletive?

 

[Christopher]

Sakes wouldn't be plural if there weren't multiple gods.

That's taking it way too literally. "Sakes" is found in several old-fashioned minced oaths such as "Sakes alive" and "Land sakes." It's not meant to be literally grammatical, it's just part of the Southern US vernacular that spawned them. Perhaps it's the same kind of mock pluralization behind "My heavens" or "Heavens to Betsy," neither of which implies belief in more than one afterlife. I think adding the S at the end strengthens the sound, which is probably the only reason it's done, since the whole point of a minced oath is to strip away the literal meaning and just use a placeholder sound, gee whillickers!

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Something with more syllables to drag out than "wow".

 

[Nerys Myk]

Something with more syllables to drag out than "wow".

Southerners are quite adept at adding syllables where none exist, thank you very much.

 

[Shawnster]

Many are the atheists who say, "Oh my God!"

How many atheists ask God for forgiveness?

People say "Jesus Christ" all the time as a swear.

Jesus Christ, God Damn It, Oh My God, etc... are all expletives, or, as you said, swearing. It's understandable anyone, be it a monotheist, a Wiccan, any religious person, a agnostic, or atheist or anyone that curses would use such an expression. That's really a no brainer.

Im hard pressed to think of any instances where an atheist would ask for a deity's forgiveness before committing a heinous act such as McCoy felt he was doing.

I could understand an atheistic McCoy saying "Nancy forgive me." But I cannot understand the explanations given in this conversation without examples. Can anyone provide examples of a person asking forgiveness from what they perceive to be myth or imaginary?

Sure, I understand the examples given above in regards saying God forbid, go to Hell, she's an angel, you're a saint, bless you, etc... I've never heard of forgiveness being uttered as a colloquial expression.

 

[Timewalker]

Yes, but "son of David" is one of the Messiah's titles also. I'm not saying that's what the screenwriters had in mind, but some Christians such as myself probably did a double-take when they first heard that line in the film.

There were a couple of extremely religious people in my local Star Trek club in the '80s/'90s and neither of them batted an eye about that line. The only issues that ever came up in that club regarding religion were when I had an I, Claudius get-together (because Patrick Stewart was in several episodes) and I had to explain to one of them that no, the entirety of Jesus' life did not occur between 1 BC and 1 AD. Later on when most of the club members decided to start a weekly D&D game, I told this person that if she wanted to play a cleric, she could not use any RL deities because I was absolutely not going to risk the game being sidetracked by religious debate. I told her she could pick something from the Deities & Demigods book that most closely matched her beliefs and we'd go from there.

McCoy said "Lord forgive me" in the first episode broadcast. Said "dear Lord" in TWOK.

Either he was talking about Jack Lord or he was a man of some faith.

Morrow didn't believe in "Vulcan mysticism" and Kirk wasn"t sure either, but Kirk was open to God's existence in Star Trek V.

Religion exists, but perhaps the stance on "organized" religion changed. Or the worst parts of it are gone.

At the very least they appear to have done away with proselytizing. At least in TOS.

Some people do prefer to go by their middle name - were we ever told McCoy's middle name, other than it starts with "H"? That would be a fun exercise to come up with ideas as to what it could be. I can't think of any "H" names that would roll off the tongue in combination with the rest of his name.

Middle names can be a frustration when other people don't take them seriously. Mine is the Swedish version of an old-fashioned name that used to be popular in my grandmother's generation. It was her first name, and there are so many people in my life from teachers to college registrars who were convinced that I didn't know my own name and kept questioning it ("are you SURE?").

It's not that it's hard to spell. There's one fewer letter in mine than in the English version. It's not even hard to pronounce in English (and in fact was used in a Star Trek episode). But they couldn't wrap their heads around it.

"Lord forgive me" is too specific and one I find hard to accept someone who isn't religious would spout off. A non believer wouldn't default to asking God for forgiveness, even metaphorically. "God damn it," "Oh my god" sure, those are expressions. Even my devout atheist sister uses them. If I heard an atheist say "Lord forgive me" in an unironic fashion, I'd spit out whatever I was drinking. It's implicit that this person is asking forgiveness from a higher power.

And being 60's TV, I highly doubt they were doing a metaphorical expression for us to ponder.

Agreed.

Obviously, but certain atheists continue to lose their grip on the balance beams in the Denial Olympics trying to spin "Lord, forgive me" into some watered-down expression, when--as you so accurately observe--"Lord, forgive me" is a direct plea to the Lord to forgive what the person knows to be some sinful / percieved unforgivable act. McCoy is a believer and considered killing the form of, or memory of Nancy as an unforgivable act against God. A direct prayer or plea comes from belief, which has no similarities to some culturally appropriated misuse of "God".

Not to mention an unforgivable act against a sentient lifeform who was the last of its kind. As a man of science and healing, taking the life of a sentient being and bringing about the extinction of its species would at least be somewhat troubling to McCoy even if his primary grief was about Nancy.

Likewise, belly buttons could not be shown on TV, and at least 5 to 10 years earlier the word "pregnant" could not be said, not could a man and woman be depicted sharing the same bed.

To this day I keep wondering just where Pebbles Flintstone was conceived. It certainly wasn't in either of her parents' twin beds, given that they were barely big enough for one person.

In Vonda MacIntyre's Trek books characters exclaim "gods...", instead of "God...". Apparently this is to show how totally distanced 23rd century society is from any current western-style theistic belief.

Or the characters could really believe in a polytheistic faith.

I decided to have the main characters in my AU 11th-century story worship two gods rather than one. I really don't want to have to deal with real-history religion in that story. I haven't even given these gods names (and if I do, they won't be from any identifiable real-world religious tradition).

People say "Jesus Christ" all the time as a swear.

I belong to a women-only atheist group on FB. One of them posted a news story earlier today about a kid who was reprimanded in school (public school) for saying "Jesus Christ!". The school seems a tad hypocritical, in my view.

 

[fireproof78]

To this day I keep wondering just where Pebbles Flintstone was conceived. It certainly wasn't in either of her parents' twin beds, given that they were barely big enough for one person.

The drive in.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

How many atheists ask God for forgiveness?

It's a canned phrase. Those are often not to be taken literally. When someone says "Fuck me!" they don't usually, literally mean they are speaking in the imperative, except when they are.

See also, "I swear to God!"

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

were we ever told McCoy's middle name, other than it starts with "H"?

Not in canon, no.

In the novelverse it's Horatio.