Archer and the original Star Trek XI plans…how was it supposed to work?

[FederationHistorian]

I want to talk about the original idea for Star Trek XI, before they went down the path to the reboot movies. I’m talking about the proposed Star Trek Justice League idea.

For those unfamiliar, basically the plot proposed would be that Picard retrieves Data, Kirk, Spock and Archer face down all the great Trek villains, from Khan to Shinzon. This would have been the final TNG film had it been made, though the failure of NEM and massive costs made it impossible for this film to come to fruition. Based on release patterns of previous four TNG films, it would have come out at the earliest in 2004 and at the latest in 2008. At the very least, Archer as presented in the film would be the Archer of S4. So far, so good.

But I’m realizing there is a significant problem with this Justice League idea. And it relates to Archer.

It was established at the end of S1 in “Shockwave”, that if Archer is abruptly taken away from the timeline, Earth is destroyed, and is a husk in the 31st century.

Archer’s not like Gillian Taylor, who can be removed from their time period and nothing major will happen to the timeline. He’s an extremely consequential individual, as it relates to future events. No Archer, no Federation. No Federation, no Kirk, Spock, Picard, Data, Sisko, Janeway, etc.

We also know that it can work in reverse – Edith Keeler lives, and the anti-war movement leads to the Nazis winning and no USS Enterprise in the 23rd century. The point being that some individuals are more consequential that others to the timeline is a fact established in Star Trek. I wouldn’t fault Picard for not knowing that plucking Archer from history would have major consequences, since even in universe temporal mechanics are all over the place.

But, was it expected for the viewing audience to believe that Picard goes back in time, brings Archer to the future, and it had no effect to the timeline at all? Or would the viewing audience be expected to believe that once Archer is retrieved, the future is even worse off because of it?

Also, were they really going to end the TNG era with a Temporal Cold War movie? As that what it sounds like this idea is.

Note that I’m not trying to dicuss how this Justice League idea could work now. I’m trying to discuss how it would have worked then, circa mid-00s.

 

[Christopher]

I don't think the idea was that removing Archer from any point in the timeline would have the same effect, just that removing him from that specific point would. Keep in mind that Daniels brought Archer into the future a second time at the climax of the Xindi season, to show him the founding of the Federation, and that didn't have catastrophic effects on the timeline.

"Shockwave"'s cliffhanger never really made a lick of sense anyway, because we've seen other important people taken out of the past without immediately altering the future, e.g. Mark Twain in "Time's Arrow" or Isaac Newton in "Death Wish." It didn't affect the future because they were sent back afterward. So "Shockwave" was the exception, not the rule, even where Archer's own personal timeline is concerned. It can be chalked up to Temporal Cold War weirdness or a unique vagary of that particular moment in time (or just plain bad writing, the actual explanation), so it wouldn't have to preclude Archer from time-traveling on some other occasion, and indeed it did not.

 

[aquova]

I don't think the idea was that removing Archer from any point in the timeline would have the same effect, just that removing him from that specific point would. Keep in mind that Daniels brought Archer into the future a second time at the climax of the Xindi season, to show him the founding of the Federation, and that didn't have catastrophic effects on the timeline.

I think this is the answer. Aside from Shockwave, I think there are three other episodes where Archer is sent out of time, seemingly without any repercussions. Besides, even if that wasn't the case I think the answer is that they would've completely ignored any repercussions, or did what they did in First Contact and say that they're all immune while the wider galaxy is affected.

 

[Christopher]

Besides, even if that wasn't the case I think the answer is that they would've completely ignored any repercussions, or did what they did in First Contact and say that they're all immune while the wider galaxy is affected.

Yeah. One reason I'm not a fan of time travel fiction is that it tends to make up whatever arbitrary rules a given story calls for, rather than trying to maintain a consistent logic. The reason I wrote Department of Temporal Investigations: Watching the Clock was to attempt to create some kind of systematic theory of Trek-universe time travel that would make some semblance of sense out of all the nonsense, but of course, plenty of Trek novelists after me have pretty much ignored the rules I laid out, because they had their own stories to tell that required different time-travel rules.

 

[FederationHistorian]

I think this is the answer. Aside from Shockwave, I think there are three other episodes where Archer is sent out of time, seemingly without any repercussions. Besides, even if that wasn't the case I think the answer is that they would've completely ignored any repercussions, or did what they did in First Contact and say that they're all immune while the wider galaxy is affected.

There are several different instances where Archer time travelled in the show to different points in time.

• 2151, just ten months prior to the launch of the NX-01
• 2004 with T’Pol, to stop Xindi-Reptilians in Detroit
• Mid-26th century, onboard the Ent-J, in the Federation’s war against the Sphere Builders
• 2161, 7 years from Archer’s future to witness the founding of the Federation
• Alternate 1944, which was more a TCW event than anything, and involved the entire NX-01 crew
• 4th century to the Time of Awakening, via Surak’s katra.
• Also, according to the E2 crew, Archer and his crew travelled back to 2037 and was stuck there till they died. Sans an aged T’Pol who was still alive by the 2150s.

Archer very rarely went to the future, in any capacity. Which why I wonder, if he was plucked from the mid-2150s to be in the early or mid-2380s (at the very least, its prior to the Romulan supernova in 2387, an event which wasn't a thought at the time), how would it work?

I think @Christopher is right. Different time travel rules would be at play, I suppose. Which doesn't seem all that consistent with how things should be.

 

[Takeru]

Picard, Data, Kirk, Spock ... and Archer? That sounds like fan fiction written by an Archer fan. Where those actual plans because Archer really sticks out I this line up.

 

[aquova]

Picard, Data, Kirk, Spock ... and Archer? That sounds like fan fiction written by an Archer fan. Where those actual plans because Archer really sticks out I this line up.

I can kinda see it, since it would've covered all three eras we were familiar with, and Enterprise was the airing show at the time. However, I have never heard of this rumor either.

 

[Christopher]

4th century to the Time of Awakening, via Surak’s katra.

That was just memory, not physical time travel, so it doesn't count.

However, I have never heard of this rumor either.

Nor I. The only alternate eleventh film I've heard about was the one that would've focused on the Romulan War.

 

[HotRod]

For those unfamiliar, basically the plot proposed would be that Picard retrieves Data, Kirk, Spock and Archer face down all the great Trek villains, from Khan to Shinzon. This would have been the final TNG film had it been made, though the failure of NEM and massive costs made it impossible for this film to come to fruition.

Thank God Nemesis was a failure. What an absolutely stupid idea.

 

[somebuddyX]

I think it was just a concept they thought up over lunch and they never nailed down the details. If it had gone ahead it might have just been "Let's get whoever is available and wants to be in this film from the TNG-era," so you might not have seen Picard or Sisko, and maybe it's like a Janeway/Riker/Quark/Sulu led joint or something.

That said, there's plenty of ways to do the original concept and have it not be a big deal:
Q brings everyone together. (He's the Monitor from "Crisis on Infinite Earths")
They all get pulled into some non-linear dimension from different points in time. (Atomic Robo)
You break the space time continuum and merge time periods together. (It's Battleworld from "Secret Wars")
You put different crew members from different shows together in different locales, so like O'Brien, Harry, Trip and Crusher go on some mission. You definitely put Worf and Torres together, perhaps with Archer and Chekov.
You save the ship battles for the finale. You even make it a point that different ships are going to be weaker than others and so you write to that and have NX-01 off to the side or enhanced but it gets its own moment to shine. But getting to see Voyager, Defiant, Enterprise-E and NX-01 together would be cool as hell.

 

[FederationHistorian]

That was just memory, not physical time travel, so it doesn't count.

Says who?

Would there really be much of a difference to Archer between that visit and Daniels taking him back to his apartment in San Francisco? As far as Archer is concerned, he’s still experiencing a past event.

Nor I. The only alternate eleventh film I've heard about was the one that would've focused on the Romulan War.

It was one of several ideas. The Justice League idea came from Brent Spiner and John Logan.

In the Romulan war screenplay, Archer and his crew are only referenced as being on Risa, while Shran and the NX-02 make a cameo appearance in the Battle of Sol. Admiral Gardner (who we only saw the mirror counterpart of in ENT) was far more relevant to the plot.

 

[Christopher]

Says who?

Says the definitions of the word "memory" and the term "time travel."

Would there really be much of a difference to Archer between that visit and Daniels taking him back to his apartment in San Francisco?

Obviously there is, the same as the difference between you imagining being in a place and physically traveling there.

As far as Archer is concerned, he’s still experiencing a past event.

But we aren't talking about his subjective perception. We're talking about his physical removal from the timeline and whether it affects the course of the future. That is an objective matter concerning the entire galaxy, not a subjective question involving only Jonathan Archer's perceptions. You're defining the question in a manner that's completely inappropriate to this conversation.

 

[FederationHistorian]

I think it was just a concept they thought up over lunch and they never nailed down the details. If it had gone ahead it might have just been "Let's get whoever is available and wants to be in this film from the TNG-era," so you might not have seen Picard or Sisko, and maybe it's like a Janeway/Riker/Quark/Sulu led joint or something.

That said, there's plenty of ways to do the original concept and have it not be a big deal:
Q brings everyone together. (He's the Monitor from "Crisis on Infinite Earths")
They all get pulled into some non-linear dimension from different points in time. (Atomic Robo)
You break the space time continuum and merge time periods together. (It's Battleworld from "Secret Wars")

The easiest for Picard to retire would be Spock, as he’s on Romulus working on reunification.

And they could bring Data back by overwriting B4 with Data’s memory chip. They did exactly that in the ST’09 countdown comic.

Kirk and Archer would both require Q or other shenanigans as you listed.

You put different crew members from different shows together in different locales, so like O'Brien, Harry, Trip and Crusher go on some mission. You definitely put Worf and Torres together, perhaps with Archer and Chekov.

Comics do such crossovers a lot. They did something like that in the comic series The Q Conflict, though it focuses on the crews of TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY in a competition. ENT was completely left out.

You save the ship battles for the finale. You even make it a point that different ships are going to be weaker than others and so you write to that and have NX-01 off to the side or enhanced but it gets its own moment to shine. But getting to see Voyager, Defiant, Enterprise-E and NX-01 together would be cool as hell.

The NX-01 could probably play the role of the command center, while the Ent-E, Defiant, Voyager and maybe the Ent-A do battle.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I'm surprised Trek has yet to do a Defenders-style crossover with all their Paramount+ characters yet in a similar vein.

It was established at the end of S1 in “Shockwave”, that if Archer is abruptly taken away from the timeline, Earth is destroyed, and is a husk in the 31st century

They'd have just ignored that, like they did later in Enterprise.

Also, most know this but after the Justice League of Trek idea was dropped, they wrote Star Trek: The Beginning about the Romulan War but where the NX-01 misses the while thing because they're at Risa. Script HERE.

 

[FederationHistorian]

They'd have just ignored that, like they did later in Enterprise.

Also, most know this but after the Justice League of Trek idea was dropped, they wrote Star Trek: The Beginning about the Romulan War but where the NX-01 misses the while thing because they're at Risa. Script HERE.

I mentioned that in the OP.

But, the screenplay never said that Archer and his crew missed the war. Just that they were on Risa for shore leave while the Battle of Earth occurs. So, it’s a blank slate - spanning 4 years and 7 months - as to what the NX-01 crew were doing between the Terra Prime crisis and their shore leave on Risa.

Though it does interestingly contradict TATV by having Shran involved in the battle, instead of him faking his death and being “dead” at that point. Which would only be a year in, according to this.

It also contradicts the Destiny novels by have Columbia preset in spacedock, instead of vanishing early in the Romulan war.

 

[F. King Daniel]

But, the screenplay never said that Archer and his crew missed the war. Just that they were on Risa for shore leave while the Battle of Earth occurs. So, it’s a blank slate - spanning 4 years and 7 months - as to what the NX-01 crew were doing between the Terra Prime crisis and their shore leave on Risa.

The war is massively shortened in the script, beginning in late 2159. I doubt had the trilogy manifested itself they'd have included the NX-01 crew since they made such a point to exclude them from the 1st one. Remember at the time, ENT was viewed as a franchise-killing failure. Presumably the 2nd movie would have been Tiberious Chase taking the Spartan to Romulus with his stolen nuke and the 3rd some big final conflict.

I remember the older versions of the war that lasted 25 years from novels, trying to reconcile the Romulans having no warp drive...

 

[somebuddyX]

The war is massively shortened in the script, beginning in late 2159. I doubt had the trilogy manifested itself they'd have included the NX-01 crew since they made such a point to exclude them from the 1st one. Remember at the time, ENT was viewed as a franchise-killing failure. Presumably the 2nd movie would have been Tiberious Chase taking the Spartan to Romulus with his stolen nuke and the 3rd some big final conflict.

I remember the older versions of the war that lasted 25 years from novels, trying to reconcile the Romulans having no warp drive...

Maybe it'd happen differently in a newer draft but in the one you posted the Spartan gets blown up when it nukes the shit out of Remus. I keep thinking they were keeping the Enterprise out of the first film because they wanted it stand on its own, but I wonder if they were hoping to reintroduce it in one of the sequels. That's the funny thing about the script getting leaked is that we got answers for one thing but then more questions about where it would have gone next.

 

[mattman8907]

The more I rewatch the series the more I think Enterprise could’ve done well as just a series of films

 

[Cryogenator]

I remember the older versions of the war that lasted 25 years from novels, trying to reconcile the Romulans having no warp drive...

No warp drive? How? Which novels?

 

[FederationHistorian]

The more I rewatch the series the more I think Enterprise could’ve done well as just a series of films

How many films do you think they could have got out of Enterprise?