Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

[Christopher]

I mean, it's basically the same thing that Loki did when they casually showed a bunch of Infinity Stones in a drawer.

No, it's not remotely the same thing. The MCU had already finished the story of the Infinity Stones by that point, so that was just a throwaway joke that had no impact on the completed narrative. This would be abandoning a narrative before it's even matured. You can't just take things out of context and say they're the same, because the context defines their significance. It's the difference between cutting open a cadaver and cutting open a living, breathing person. The act is the same, the impact is not.

 

[Set Harth]

Loki show gonna Loki show.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

The problem is a bit of fans knowing too much inside baseball. We know they are in a pickle with Jonathan Majors but there's no reason the story can't have started in Loki, used in Quantumania and ended in Loki. The TVA is back and their mission has been redirected to protect against incursions from Kang. That is an ending, it doesn't have to be followed up with necessarily. (I haven't seen The Marvels but I don't think Kang is a part of that)

 

[Christopher]

there's no reason the story can't have started in Loki, used in Quantumania and ended in Loki. The TVA is back and their mission has been redirected to protect against incursions from Kang. That is an ending, it doesn't have to be followed up with necessarily.

It's an ending, but is it a good ending? That's the point. Just because you can say it can be done that way doesn't make it the best way to do it. It's a slapdash, lazy way to do it, the cheapest shot you could take, and it's nonsensical to say that's the most desirable option. I sincerely hope the people making the MCU are dedicated enough to apply some actual thought and work to turning this problem into something narratively worthwhile, rather that just lazily looking for the easiest way out.

Besides, not everyone who watches the movies is familiar with the TV shows. The point is not, should not be, to require everyone to be familiar with everything. Continuity is supposed to be a bonus, not a mandate. The goal in a shared universe is to make the stories work on both levels, to be as accessible to people who only experience a part as it is to the people who experience the whole. So the movie track and the TV track should be able to exist independently of each other. If they inform each other, it should be in a way that still makes it possible to follow the movies without having seen the shows. So what Quantumania set up needs to have a payoff in a movie.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

You say this a lot. A concept or idea cannot be itself bad/lazy writing. It’s in the execution.

Both--concept and execution--can be bad; there's a number of films that serve as examples of that (the Schumacher Batman movies, Wonder Woman '84, Star Trek: Insurrection, many of the [Star Wars films released in this century, etc.). Ideas that were poor and/or muddled from the start often walk hand-in-hand with its poor execution due to the influence of the former on approach.

 

[valkyrie013]

It's an ending, but is it a good ending? That's the point. Just because you can say it can be done that way doesn't make it the best way to do it. It's a slapdash, lazy way to do it, the cheapest shot you could take, and it's nonsensical to say that's the most desirable option. I sincerely hope the people making the MCU are dedicated enough to apply some actual thought and work to turning this problem into something narratively worthwhile, rather that just lazily looking for the easiest way out.

Besides, not everyone who watches the movies is familiar with the TV shows. The point is not, should not be, to require everyone to be familiar with everything. Continuity is supposed to be a bonus, not a mandate. The goal in a shared universe is to make the stories work on both levels, to be as accessible to people who only experience a part as it is to the people who experience the whole. So the movie track and the TV track should be able to exist independently of each other. If they inform each other, it should be in a way that still makes it possible to follow the movies without having seen the shows. So what Quantumania set up needs to have a payoff in a movie.

Well.. considering Quantumania's box office.. not many people watched it.. probably more watched loki than ant man..
Besides, Movie gowers know whats going on, and they know that Marvel has to do something now, Either Recast Kang, or shelve Kang and his variants alltogether and bring in another big bad for the next avengers movie.

 

[Set Harth]

So the movie track and the TV track should be able to exist independently of each other.

oddly, Quantumania ends with a scene from Loki S2...

 

[eschaton]

Besides, not everyone who watches the movies is familiar with the TV shows. The point is not, should not be, to require everyone to be familiar with everything. Continuity is supposed to be a bonus, not a mandate. The goal in a shared universe is to make the stories work on both levels, to be as accessible to people who only experience a part as it is to the people who experience the whole. So the movie track and the TV track should be able to exist independently of each other. If they inform each other, it should be in a way that still makes it possible to follow the movies without having seen the shows. So what Quantumania set up needs to have a payoff in a movie.

I could agree with this, except that basically none of the post-credit scenes in Phases 4/5 have seen any payoff. Without the metaknowledge that Kang was supposed to be important, I don't see how this is any different than the end of Eternals, or Shang-Chi, or the Venom scene in NWH, or Hurcules in Love and Thunder.

Marvel has dropped so many of these teasers with no payoff in sight, I don't think that low-knowledge fans will care about this any more than they did those. Meaning a minor irk which lets them know that the MCU no longer lives up to its promises.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Besides, not everyone who watches the movies is familiar with the TV shows. The point is not, should not be, to require everyone to be familiar with everything. Continuity is supposed to be a bonus, not a mandate. The goal in a shared universe is to make the stories work on both levels, to be as accessible to people who only experience a part as it is to the people who experience the whole. So the movie track and the TV track should be able to exist independently of each other. If they inform each other, it should be in a way that still makes it possible to follow the movies without having seen the shows. So what Quantumania set up needs to have a payoff in a movie.

Why does it have to payoff in a movie? Isn't continuity a bonus? You can't follow the movie because of the TV show?

 

[Christopher]

I could agree with this, except that basically none of the post-credit scenes in Phases 4/5 have seen any payoff.

Yet. They're obviously intended to pay off further down the road, even if it takes years. (Except for the Venom scene in NWH, which was just a sop to Sony to promote its Venom series.) I'm not talking about how it looks today, I'm talking about the long game. Keep in mind that it took 6 years for the Thanos/Infinity Stone elements set up in The Avengers to have their culmination in Infinity War, and the post-credit scenes you mention are all from just the past two or so years. It's early yet. These things are all meant to set up later story arcs over the years ahead, and if they abandon any of them without ever paying them off, that is a creative and structural failure. It is not something to root for.

Why does it have to payoff in a movie?

Because it was set up in a movie, as I said. People who watch the movies and not the TV shows would not be aware of a resolution that happened in the TV shows. The shows exist to support the movie continuity that constitutes the primary spine of the MCU. WandaVision was made to set up Multiverse of Madness and The Marvels. Falcon/Winter Soldier was made to set up Cap 4. Loki was made to set up the multiverse for future movies. And so on. The setups are on TV, the resolutions are in the theater.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

I could agree with this, except that basically none of the post-credit scenes in Phases 4/5 have seen any payoff.

Black Widow was followed up on almost immediately with Hawkeye, Wanda Vision, Ms. Marvel and Quantumania all pretty much followed up on by now.

Marvel has dropped so many of these teasers with no payoff in sight, I don't think that low-knowledge fans will care about this any more than they did those. Meaning a minor irk which lets them know that the MCU no longer lives up to its promises.

Where did the rule come from that teasers have to have immediate pay off?
Certainly not from the earlier phases where The Incredible Hulk, Avengers, Thor 2, Avengers 2, Guardians 2, Civil War, Doctor Strange, and Spider-Man: Homecoming weren't followed up on immediately.

What's the problem with the teasers again?

 

[Turtletrekker]

The post credit scene from Black Widow was resolved in Hawkeye on Disney plus.

ETA: Ninja'd!

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Because it was set up in a movie, as I said. People who watch the movies and not the TV shows would not be aware of a resolution that happened in the TV shows. The shows exist to support the movie continuity that constitutes the primary spine of the MCU. WandaVision was made to set up Multiverse of Madness and The Marvels. Falcon/Winter Soldier was made to set up Cap 4. Loki was made to set up the multiverse for future movies. And so on. The setups are on TV, the resolutions are in the theater.

It was setup in the end credits of the movie, not even within the main narrative proper which told a complete story. Isn't continuity a bonus?

Does it have to payoff in an Ant-Man movie? If it can be paid off in any Marvel movie it sounds like we're getting really particular about what we expect is reasonable for a viewer.

Is it OK that it gets paid off in an MCU movie four movies down the road? Can we expect Joe Viewer to watch four movies for a payoff to an end credits scene instead of being in a TV show?

 

[Set Harth]

Where did the rule come from that teasers have to have immediate pay off?
Certainly not from the earlier phases where The Incredible Hulk, Avengers, Thor 2, Avengers 2, Guardians 2, Civil War, Doctor Strange, and Spider-Man: Homecoming weren't followed up on immediately.

In fact, the Doctor Strange teaser was never followed up on at all, because the relevant scene was deleted from Strange 2.

 

[UssGlenn]

In fact, the Doctor Strange teaser was never followed up on at all, because the relevant scene was deleted from Strange 2.

That just means Mordo is still out there, and can be used as a Villain in the future.

 

[theenglish]

Well.. considering Quantumania's box office.. not many people watched it.. probably more watched loki than ant man..
Besides, Movie gowers know whats going on, and they know that Marvel has to do something now, Either Recast Kang, or shelve Kang and his variants alltogether and bring in another big bad for the next avengers movie.

That's sarcasm, right. Quantumania was the 10th highest grossing film of the year.

 

[theenglish]

Marvel has dropped so many of these teasers with no payoff in sight, I don't think that low-knowledge fans will care about this any more than they did those. Meaning a minor irk which lets them know that the MCU no longer lives up to its promises.

I think part of the problem lies in this very thing. Prior to Endgame, most teasers either directly related to the next upcoming movie or they were humorous scenes following up on something that happened in that film. Sometimes they were teasers that related to a movie that was already in development (Thor's Avengers tease) even if it wasn't the next movie or something specific and tangible for the upcoming installment of that movie series.

Since Endgame, the teasers have felt very unspecific in nature--not really teasing any pressing story detail for upcoming movies--and what's more, any movies that have been teased (Eternals 2, Doctor Strange and the Multiversal Incursions) are either so far in the future that people just don't care. The teases that have worked the best are one's that have specific pay offs (Ms. Marvel, Black Widow, and Quatumania's Loke scene, for example).

Bottom line, End Credits scenes work as pointed teasers not as some puzzle where you need to piece multiple scenes together in order to make sense of what is to come.

 

[valkyrie013]

Also, Not everybody sees Every single movie, or TV series. I still havent seen Ms Marvel, or Eternals because Im just not interested. and I haven't gone to a Marvel movie in theatres since.. .. Shang Chi? Been quite a while. Because in the past they were almost guaranteed good movies, Now? not so much. Especially with shows like Secret Wars.. that was a travesty.

That's sarcasm, right. Quantumania was the 10th highest grossing film of the year.

Not really, I only seen it on Disney Ploof, and i thought it sucked.. Honestly haven't liked any of the Ant Man movies, plus 475 million on a 300 million budget.. Kind of box office bomb.. And this whole year has been a snooze fest not only for marvel, None have cracked the 1 billion mark when it was almost guaranteed it would cross or come close.

 

[Christopher]

It was setup in the end credits of the movie, not even within the main narrative proper which told a complete story. Isn't continuity a bonus?

You're forgetting the parts in the actual movie where Kang talked about the other versions of himself who exiled him, and warned Scott that he'd be unleashing an even greater threat if he defeated Kang. The post-credit scene just added to what had already been set up in the movie itself -- and set up even more explicitly by both seasons of Loki. Indeed, it was the fundamental root cause of everything that happened throughout both seasons of Loki, in the same way that it was the fundamental root cause of everything Kang did in Quantumania. It's utterly absurd to suggest that this is something limited exclusively to a single post-credit scene. That merely showed what we'd already been extensively told about.

Does it have to payoff in an Ant-Man movie?

Why are you asking me? We already know that the plan is to pay it off in Avengers 5, which up until recently was subtitled The Kang Dynasty. This is not a secret. Presumably the plan is for other movies and shows, including ones not necessarily announced yet, to contribute their own setups to the building arc in the same way that was done with the various Infinity Stones.

That plan is, of course, now likely to change in response to real-life factors. But what we're discussing here is that there are good ways and bad ways to make that change, and the best way is going to have to be something careful that takes into account everything that's been set in motion and would be affected by the change, including the parts that we in the viewing audience don't know about yet. You can't turn a moving supertanker on a dime. You have to plan way, way ahead to account for its inertia.

Is it OK that it gets paid off in an MCU movie four movies down the road? Can we expect Joe Viewer to watch four movies for a payoff to an end credits scene instead of being in a TV show?

Again, are you forgetting that Thanos and the Infinity Stones were teased for six years before Infinity War?

 

[Morpheus 02]

Regarding recasting (in general)

it depends on a number of factors, including how early in the process (i.e. Ed Norton), was the character vital in that early production (i.e. Terence Howard’s Rhodey), and the impact the actor on the production, as well as circumstances. So that’s why they had to change the name of the Rosanne show after she got booted. For Chadwick Boseman… you have to consider not just the selfish fan who wants more T’Challa, but the people who actually made the movie, and how they felt. Even though his time was relatively short, Chadwick Boseman’s impact was huge, and many people involved felt they did the right thing.

Also things like makeup/looks… which is why Red Skull was “easily” recast.


Many examples of recasting, such as Darren in Bewitched, happened at a time when people didn’t care as much about continuity.


Regarding Kang…. Was his agent really smart enough (and legally able to) to have a clause that prevents Marvel from using ANY variant of Kang if Jonathan Majors isn’t acting as him?


Certainly story wise, we had it right there in Loki how variants could easily NOT look like the main actor. Couldn’t Immortus, for example, be counted as a separate character?


Was Kang supposed to last past Kang Dynasty? Was he supposed to appear in anything else other than Loki & Ant Man 3?


If Dr. Doom (and hopefully a LEGION of Doom ) was supposed to be the character for Secret Wars, I hope they keep him there, and if needed, do a tossable villain (which Marvel has lots of experience with), or since it is supposed to be about the Multiverse, is there another character they can re-use to make it work?


And regarding end credit scenes -- some of them, really did NOT go past that scene.. for example, the SPiderman scene with Captain America basically mocking us for staying until the end to see those credits.

Yeah, some are basically previews for the future...but as we see, sometimes things have to change.

And the complaining about "having" to watch the TV shows... have none of you read comics before, especially of the original Secret Wars era? There is a cadre of fans who will follow everything, and they get hyped about the interconnectedness. But fans of just one or 2 title were able to keep up with their favorite thing, and not be "confused" about stuff that might have been from elsewhere.

Interconnectedness can create free positive hype if done well, and again, if done well, won't alienate people who do NOT want to do the "homework".

The problem is that Marvel is seems to have sunk into the trap the comics did --- after having that HUGE special event, they feel the need to come up with a NEW special event every couple of years...and that is NOT sustainable.