Voyager was the best spin-off for its first two seasons

[fireproof78]

And so I'm stuck with Star Trek.

You say that like it's a bad thing?

I mean, I'm "stuck" with MASH, Night Court, Dharma and Greg, as well as watching several people I enjoy playing Fallout online.

I feel like that is sufficient.

Is there something more needed?

 

[Lynx]

You say that like it's a bad thing?

I mean, I'm "stuck" with MASH, Night Court, Dharma and Greg, as well as watching several people I enjoy playing Fallout online.

I feel like that is sufficient.

Is there something more needed?

Definitely not if I'm stuck with TOS, TNG, DS9 and the first three seasons of Voyager.
Plus a couple of books from the same area.

And then we have NCIS seasons 1-17, CSI NY, CSI Miami and original CSI.
Not to mention ice hockey.
And Iron Maiden still makes good music!

 

[fireproof78]

Definitely not if I'm stuck with TOS, TNG, DS9 and the first three seasons of Voyager.
Plus a couple of books from the same area.

And then we have NCIS seasons 1-17, CSI NY, CSI Miami and original CSI.
Not to mention ice hockey.
And Iron Maiden still makes good music!

Then it's all good.

 

[Lynx]

Then it's all good.

Not everything but there is much which is good!

 

[fireproof78]

Not everything but there is much which is good!

You answered the question of how to find the good quite well, my friend.

I wish you much more finding of the good in the coming year.

 

[at Quark's]

The problems with those writers were that they simply didn't care. They came up with some really stupid scenarios, like the limited supply of torpedoes, the silly Ocampa nine-year lifespan

I don't think the irreplaceable torpedoes idea was stupid in itself (I do agree the 9 year Ocampan life span was dumb though). But they should have thought things through before introducing it, and then have chosen to do one of the three following things:
1) Not use it at all, since it would put too many constraints on the stories (a bit like the warp 5 limitation idea in late TNG imposed too many limitations and therefore the problem was very quickly dismissed, circumvented or even ignored)
2) Use it but consistently follow through upon it, making the firing of a torpedo a special occasion, a one-in-a-season event (after all they couldn't know they'd be home in 7 seasons)
3) Address it at some point (trade with an alien race with comparable technology, or the VOY crew getting better and better at becoming self sufficient and producing what they need, and eventually build their own torpedo and shuttle production facilities)

All three could have been done very well, even 2) wouldn't have been particularly difficult - after all, phasers can be every bit as potent a weapon as the writer of the episode needs them to be. But they couldn't even be bothered to spend a few lines on 3).

 

[Oddish]

Address it at some point (trade with an alien race with comparable technology, or the VOY crew getting better and better at becoming self sufficient and producing what they need, and eventually build their own torpedo and shuttle production facilities

Like our friend @Lynx suggested when they developed... THE SHUTTLE AND TORPEDO BUILDING TEAM!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[fireproof78]

It's like it aren't that hard to write good.

 

[Oddish]

It's like it aren't that hard to write good.

It's really not. Consider the following... many of Voyager's worst inconsistencies could have been addressed with seconds of dialogue. As seen here: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/how-to-resolve-6-voyager-inconsistencies-in-85-seconds.309089/

 

[Lynx]

Like our friend @Lynx suggested when they developed... THE SHUTTLE AND TORPEDO BUILDING TEAM!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Yes and thank you!
My contribution to Star Trek!

I don't think the irreplaceable torpedoes idea was stupid in itself (I do agree the 9 year Ocampan life span was dumb though). But they should have thought things through before introducing it, and then have chosen to do one of the three following things:
1) Not use it at all, since it would put too many constraints on the stories (a bit like the warp 5 limitation idea in late TNG imposed too many limitations and therefore the problem was very quickly dismissed, circumvented or even ignored)
2) Use it but consistently follow through upon it, making the firing of a torpedo a special occasion, a one-in-a-season event (after all they couldn't know they'd be home in 7 seasons)
3) Address it at some point (trade with an alien race with comparable technology, or the VOY crew getting better and better at becoming self sufficient and producing what they need, and eventually build their own torpedo and shuttle production facilities)

All three could have been done very well, even 2) wouldn't have been particularly difficult - after all, phasers can be every bit as potent a weapon as the writer of the episode needs them to be. But they couldn't even be bothered to spend a few lines on 3).

Exactly what I think too.

If someone writes a story or a script about a ship with limited resources when it comes to shuttles, torpedoes and such, then they hade to adapt the writing to it.

Avoid wasting of torpedoes and shutttles or come up with some solution, like a shuttle and torpedo building team.

As for the Shuttle and Torpedo Building Team and such, there are more suggestions for correcting errors and inconsistencies in Voyager on the Kes Website. Some of them very serious and some funny

Just follow the link Voyager's Mysteries-and how to solve them!

 

[fireproof78]

If someone writes a story or a script about a ship with limited resources when it comes to shuttles, torpedoes and such, then they hade to adapt the writing to it.

Yes. If you impose limits then follow them or provide a reasonable explanation for a change.

In clinical work, we call it the golden thread. The through line that started it off should either continue or have a reason for changing.

 

[at Quark's]

I wouldn't call DS9 'anti-trek'. I would call a series anti-trek only if its characters openly betrayed the ideals of the Federation, and this was shown as 'good' or even 'that's just the way life is'. In DS9, the protagonists still very much tried to mostly live by those ideals.

It did acknowledge though that in some situations, if you want to survive, you can't always adhere to those ideals. Sisko cheated the Romulans into the war, yes, but it was to save the Alpha Quadrant from Dominion control (subjugation and possibly extermination of some Alpha Quadrant species), and not without precedent from 'classic' Trek, either. Kirk cheated for far pettier reasons (refusing to accept the Kobayashi Maru test had no solution), and that earned him a commendation.

 

[Oddish]

Since the Kobiashi Maru was designed to be unwinnable, and a demonstration of character rather than an actual beatable challenge... Kirk's solution was as valid as any other. Indeed, it showed an ability to think around corners, like how Wesley's namesake in "The Princess Bride" won the Battle of Wits.

Consider Pike's impeccably Starfleet handling of the Romulans in "A Quality of Mercy", compared to Kirk's considerably more aggressive response... sometimes the guy who bends the rules is the guy you need.

 

[at Quark's]

Since the Kobiashi Maru was designed to be unwinnable, and a demonstration of character rather than an actual beatable challenge... Kirk's solution was as valid as any other. Indeed, it showed an ability to think around corners, like how Wesley's namesake in "The Princess Bride" won the Battle of Wits.

Consider Pike's impeccably Starfleet handling of the Romulans in "A Quality of Mercy", compared to Kirk's considerably more aggressive response... sometimes the guy who bends the rules is the guy you need.

I don't argue the 'validity' of his solution, or the fact that he got a commendation for original thinking, at the end of the day. But it still was cheating, and not the original intention of SF for their students to resort to those kinds of measures. If it had been, Kirk never would have remarked that it 'nearly got him tossed from the Academy' as a result.

And my point is he cheated simply because 'didn't like to lose' -for a simple test, that sounds rather selfish to me-, whereas Sisko at least had the interests of the entire Quadrant at heart.

But yeah, sometimes you need guys like that, I fully agree.

 

[Oddish]

The test itself was a cheat, because there was no way to win. And Kirk's solution did indeed show his character, for better or for worse. As we see in "The Enemy Within", Kirk is not a saint, he's a balance of saint and sinner.

 

[at Quark's]

It only would have been a cheat in as far the possibility of winning was perhaps suggested. We don't know for sure, though, what the students were told vs. what they assumed before they got into that test.

But no win scenarios really do exist, and testing what one would do under such circumstances in itself could be a perfectly valid test at the Academy.

If I had been responsible in the Academy for dealing with Kirk's actions there, I probably would have done two, perhaps three things:

1) Award him the commendation for unconventional thinking, and tell him that real life situations sometimes necessitate such thinking, and that it is good to not give up too soon in an situation that seems to be a no-win. I would applaud him for that.
2) I'd still hand him some disciplinary measure for cheating, despite 1) - obviously I wouldn't toss him from the Academy, that would be a waste of high potential
3) and perhaps I'd devise a new test scenario in which he's forced to admit defeat, with absolutely no way out this time, and see how he deals with that. I may still have wanted to convey the intended lesson of the Kobayashi Maru simulation ('dealing with loss'). Not sure about this one though.

 

[Lynx]

The test itself was a cheat, because there was no way to win. And Kirk's solution did indeed show his character, for better or for worse. As we see in "The Enemy Within", Kirk is not a saint, he's a balance of saint and sinner.

I guess that's why we like Captain Kirk!

 

[Oddish]

Of the four Berman era spin offs, Voyager may be the best... TNG wins "most improved" for its second season (that's why "growing the beard" is a TV trope). DS9 made a good showing, and it had no "Threshold", so it might have a claim as well. ENT just mortally wounded itself.

However, if we add in Kurtzman era spinoff shows... while PIC struggled, and DIS polarizes, LD had a good showing. And, SNW and PRO (S1 anyway) were running on all thrusters from the start.

 

[fireproof78]

I guess that's why we like Captain Kirk!

Because we know he has a dark side but works to keep it in check?