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10 Starship "Holy Grails"

And my other car is a 1996 Impala SS with a (relatively) new 383 LT-1 Stroker, new Turbo-Cats, she runs awesome and could blow the doors off of most cars on the road today.
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I remember the commercial:
"Lord Vader, your car is ready."

I wanted the LTD equivalent Mercury Marauder.
 
But why exactly? They were already producing Niagaras, Freedoms, Springfields, Challengers, Nebulas, Olympics, Cheyennes and New Orleans. Why go back to the Ambassador?

If the Ambassador is a capable design and they're still servicing classes like the Miranda and Excelsior, perhaps even building them, then why not? As with my car example, there's likely a much smaller generational gap between the Ambassador and the Galaxy family than, say, the Ambassador and the Miranda.
 
But was it capable, though? The evidence, such as it is, points to the contrary. Based on the registry numbers of two of the four known Ambassadors (Excalibur NCC-26517 and Yamaguchi NCC-26510), they both seem to have been built around 2310-2320, and the Enterprise-C, which was lost in 2344, probably was built around this time as well (and five more non-canon Ambassadors all have 2XXXX registries, and the Horatio, whose class name was mentioned aloud, only has a non-canon registry of NCC-10532.) This seems to imply that the class was not mass-produced, or not popular for whatever reason, and Starfleet chose to mass-produce Excelsiors and Mirandas instead. We only ever see four Ambassadors on screen, and the huge DS9 Dominion War fleets contain zero Ambassadors. On-screen evidence refutes the idea that Starfleet would produce a random Ambassador decades after their already extremely short production time-span.
 
I imagine they would be redundant after Starfleet starts producing Galaxy-class starships in sufficient numbers. By the end of the Dominion War there were several Galaxys in service, but in the 50s there would only be the prototype until Yamato and Enterprise enter service five or so years later in the early 60s. And Yamato blows up after only a few years in service. Ten years after USS Galaxy entered service they were still not sure about the class due to troubles they had with Enterprise's warp core. This seems to settle before the loss of USS Enterprise in the 70s.
 
But was it capable, though? The evidence, such as it is, points to the contrary. Based on the registry numbers of two of the four known Ambassadors (Excalibur NCC-26517 and Yamaguchi NCC-26510), they both seem to have been built around 2310-2320, and the Enterprise-C, which was lost in 2344, probably was built around this time as well (and five more non-canon Ambassadors all have 2XXXX registries, and the Horatio, whose class name was mentioned aloud, only has a non-canon registry of NCC-10532.) This seems to imply that the class was not mass-produced, or not popular for whatever reason, and Starfleet chose to mass-produce Excelsiors and Mirandas instead. We only ever see four Ambassadors on screen, and the huge DS9 Dominion War fleets contain zero Ambassadors. On-screen evidence refutes the idea that Starfleet would produce a random Ambassador decades after their already extremely short production time-span.

Well, SF is a part of the UFP... and part of UFP's motto are environmental sustainability, recycling, etc.
Its possible that if a starship design is in service, and it did fairly well, SF will keep it around and upgrade it with latest technology to keep it running.
If SF decided to build one much later, it could be to test the viability of the design in the new era and maybe see how it's hull geometry holds up later on as it was a more modern design vs the Miranda and Excelsior.

Maybe it was an older Ambassador class which was reassigned a different registry then?
The Titan's major systems were cannibalized and transferred to the Neo Constitution Titan-A. The old Defiant was lost at the battle of Chintoka and SF renamed a new vessel the Defiant with exactly the same registry.

Perhaps SF decided to simply approve the change of the name and registry of an Ambassador class ship that SF was upgrading for a ship that was 'badly damaged' or 'destroyed'?
 
Why would Starfleet invest time and resources into building newer ship classes when their chief adversaries were using ship classes just as old as some of Starfleet's oldest classes?
 
That might be the case when it was primarily the Cardassians and rogue Klingons. The Romulans coming back shortly after the Galaxy-class started entering service shifted the balance of power and technology a little bit. But the introduction of the Borg is what truly shifted Starfleet's priorities in terms of weapons and defense technologies. Even if they started to slack of in the aftermath of Wolf 359 and the treaty with Cardassia. The discovery of the Dominion and its fairly hard line that Starfleet was very willing to cross (exploration of the Gamma Quadrant), shifted Starfleet into a massive buildup and recall of a lot of deep space exploration missions to form fleets within the Federation interior. The Klingon Conflict and the Battle of Sector 001 also saw Starfleet pool starships for operations. Something it probably hadn't done since the Klingon War and maybe the Battle of Organia. A lot changed between 2364 and 2377.
 
I don't think we should be too restrained by what we see on-screen, especially when we know that there are production limitations involved. Just because we didn't see a lot of Ambassadors later on (or FC ships earlier on, for that matter) doesn't mean they can't have existed. What's next, are we going to say Starfleet's egalitarian ethos is why Admirals have uniforms with worse tailoring than front-line officers, and don't get the new uniform designs until a year or two after everyone else?
 
Why would Starfleet invest time and resources into building newer ship classes when their chief adversaries were using ship classes just as old as some of Starfleet's oldest classes?

I’m not sure what that has to do with anything, but let’s look at that.

Romulans: Federation had no contact with them for 80 years. In 2364, they find out that the Romulans now have huge new warbirds.

Cardassians: We have no idea how old the Galor class or Keldon class ships are. They could be 40 years old, or they could be brand new.

Klingons: not really adversaries anymore, per se. They still use some older K’Tinga’s, but also have new designs such as the Vor’cha and Negh’var. They also have different size classes of the BoP besides the tiny one we saw in TSFS.

I don't think we should be too restrained by what we see on-screen, especially when we know that there are production limitations involved. Just because we didn't see a lot of Ambassadors later on (or FC ships earlier on, for that matter) doesn't mean they can't have existed. What's next, are we going to say Starfleet's egalitarian ethos is why Admirals have uniforms with worse tailoring than front-line officers, and don't get the new uniform designs until a year or two after everyone else?

Nobody’s arguing that they didn’t exist. Rather, that the evidence shown on screen seems to indicate that the Ambassador class was not mass-produced in high numbers and had been phased out for some time. For lack of any better info, those are the conclusions I’ve drawn. I’m not saying I’m right, just that this seems to be the prevailing logic based on visual and secondhand sources.
 
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But was it capable, though? The evidence, such as it is, points to the contrary. Based on the registry numbers of two of the four known Ambassadors (Excalibur NCC-26517 and Yamaguchi NCC-26510), they both seem to have been built around 2310-2320, and the Enterprise-C, which was lost in 2344, probably was built around this time as well (and five more non-canon Ambassadors all have 2XXXX registries, and the Horatio, whose class name was mentioned aloud, only has a non-canon registry of NCC-10532.) This seems to imply that the class was not mass-produced, or not popular for whatever reason, and Starfleet chose to mass-produce Excelsiors and Mirandas instead. We only ever see four Ambassadors on screen, and the huge DS9 Dominion War fleets contain zero Ambassadors. On-screen evidence refutes the idea that Starfleet would produce a random Ambassador decades after their already extremely short production time-span.

That is one possibility. For my own head canon, to reconcile the official Ambassador design with the one FASA invented for their OM, I've assumed the latter is a block I design that only saw a limited production run, since there are a relative handful of 15 ships. The OM assumes it was actually the newest heavy cruiser in Starfleet as of TNG S1, but that seems a bit weird given that it uses Excelsior type technology. It was overgunned and expensive to produce relative to its utility, as the Klingons were actually becoming Federation members in the FASAverse and the Romulans had gone into isolation. So Starfleet decided to switch over to the block II canon model of the Ambassador, which was an alternate design proposal.

But as far as onscreen evidence goes, I personally am more likely to assume the design might have been at least moderately built even though we only see a handful of vessels. It's hard to judge how long a given production run might actually last, not including major challenges like the Dominion War or a Borg invasion, among others. I generally tend to assume registries are worked on a batch system and not primarily chronological, so I assume you can't necessarily judge the era by the registry. YMMV of course. :)
 
the crew was given permission to rename Sao Paolo to the Defiant, and the thing got the original registry without the A suffix

One of the few things that they could do to change Deep Space Nine to be more consistent would be to add "-A" after that episode. That also begs the question of how many Defiant class ships existed at that time. Playing the video games, from the late 90's and early 2000's they are cheap and take a lot of damage so making a lot of them is often useful. But based on dialogue, how many would really have been in service during the war?
 
I always felt the Ambassador class was eventually retired as more Galaxy-class starships came online. The Galaxy seemed to be a better version of the Ambassador, so Starfleet may have felt that having two types of ships operating in the same role redundant, especially if one class was so much more better than the other.
 
I always felt the Ambassador class was eventually retired as more Galaxy-class starships came online. The Galaxy seemed to be a better version of the Ambassador, so Starfleet may have felt that having two types of ships operating in the same role redundant, especially if one class was so much more better than the other.
That's what I was thinking, since Enterprise C had it's impactful, yet fateful demise in a Multi-Ship vs 1 encounter, the whole reasoning behind the "Galaxy Class" was to build a bigger, more bad ass ship that can survive out in the wild.

Then the Dominion War happened, and it wasn't enough.

Ergo, the Ross Class replaced the Galaxy Class starting in the late 24th / very early 25th century.
 
Given how many starship classes we see, Starfleet must be forever actively retiring ships if "having two types of ships operating in the same role [to be] redundant". It's also clearly a policy that isn't applied rigorously given how many Excelsiors and Mirandas we still see, which by the 2360s shouldn't be the best classes for anything.

This is a headcanon thing, but I've used it elsewhere to explain the lack of e.g. a Miranda replacement – some classes of starship just prove to be so reliable, so upgradable, so flexible, that a proposed replacement just barely gets off the production line before it becomes outdated itself, and so it is only ever produced in tiny numbers.

We might assume that a replacement plan for the venerable Excelsior-class began in the 2320s following the retirement of the NCC-2000 herself (cf. PIC S2 production information), with the final Ambassador design ready to go by the 2330s. And a handful of Ambassadors were built, with a focus on exploration and first contact missions as implied by the class name itself. With its unprecedented saucer and engine volume we might also assume this allowed for longer missions with less support with more crew in greater comfort, and the ship itself had significantly greater range and endurance than the Excelsior.

But the Excelsiors just... lasted. Retrofitting them with technology derived from the Ambassador development project proved surprisingly easy, and given that Excelsiors are a third the volume of an Ambassador it was possible to upgrade multiple Excelsiors for the resource cost of one Ambassador. Except for deep space/long-term exploratory missions where the Ambassador had a clear advantage, it was just easier and cheaper for Starfleet to keep upgrading Excelsiors. Hell, it was cheaper for them to build brand new updated Excelsiors from the keel up! As a result the Ambassadors were produced in much more limited numbers than expected during the 2330s, and by the mid-2340s plans were already afoot for the successor to the Ambassador to resolve a number of perceived shortcomings in its design – a ship of unprecedented size, power, and prestige in the form of the Galaxy-class.

We kind of see all of this a generation later with the Galaxy-class being a very resource-intensive ship only produced in relatively small numbers. The TNG Technical Manual says Galaxies were produced in batches of six; we have on-screen evidence for at least thirteen (Galaxy, Yamato, Enterprise, Challenger, Odyssey, Syracuse, Venture, plus a number of unidentified ones that might or might not have included some of these named ships in various Dominion War fleets and VOY: "Endgame"), suggesting that at least three batches were built, possibly four if we suppose that we don't keep seeing the same small group of Galaxies over and over and over. By the 2370s the days of the Excelsior-class design are finally waning, but Starfleet is putting considerable resources into building numerous ships much smaller than the Galaxy-class – Intrepid, Akira, Sovereign – in more specialised roles. Going by PIC S3 it looks as though the Galaxy has long been out of production by the 2400s in just the same way as the Ambassador has been by the 2360s, a victim of her own technological success and changing Starfleet priorities. If the Ambassador followed the same trajectory we see the Galaxies follow in later decades, there may have been fewer than twenty of them produced in total – compared to the at least SIXTY Excelsiors we have on-screen evidence for – with a loss rate of ~25%. By the time of the Dominion War there may simply have been too few operational Ambassadors for them to be obvious fleet members.

This is the argument I have to explain the Ambassador being conspicuous by its absence in the Dominion War fleets, because they absolutely SHOULD have been there, even if only glimpsed as low-quality background models, and it sucks that the production team actively decided to not have them. And maybe they did serve in the Dominion War, but their ageing designs and limited numbers ensured that they are never in the fleets we see engaging the Dominion on the front lines. Maybe they were doing the jobs that the wartime Galaxy-class ships should have been doing – big enough and grand enough for the diplomatic missions, but no more powerful than the uprated Excelsiors we see making up the backbone of so many Dominion War fleets. Maybe they formed the heart of the Federation's inner defensive perimeter around Earth and the other core planets. Maybe they took over as the core heavy transport ships for the War effort – much larger than any other ship apart from the Nebula and the Galaxy, which were needed elsewhere, and fast enough to do the heavy lifting of weapons, personnel, and other necessary supplies at warp 9... pack in crew to the same density as on a 2260s Constitution-class and an Ambassador could easily carry between five and six thousand people.
 
One of the few things that they could do to change Deep Space Nine to be more consistent would be to add "-A" after that episode. That also begs the question of how many Defiant class ships existed at that time. Playing the video games, from the late 90's and early 2000's they are cheap and take a lot of damage so making a lot of them is often useful. But based on dialogue, how many would really have been in service during the war?

Yes, for the sake of consistency, they certainly could have done that... but they haven't.
Unless of course PIC S3 takes place in an alternate timeline of course (but that's unlikely).

And besides, even if they done that, we'd still be left with the 25th century 'refits' of Stargazer and Excelsior which kept the names of their predecessor ships, but brand new registries - s the Defiant naming is the only 'loophole' in-universe which gives credence to the idea that SF can assign same names but different registries (without the suffix letters), or possibly even different names with same registries to a ship...

I chalk it up to the writers introducing a whole slew of new ship classes from ST: Online which effectively canonized the designs, by which point they long stopped paying attention to the registries... because if they had, then the 25th century Excelsior and Stargazer would have had their predecessor registries with A suffix letters, but alas.

But hey, if that can happen, then an Enterprise can easily get trashed every 10 years (going through the whole alphabet effectively) and then SF could 'decide' to just start the Enterprise line from scratch with a fresh registry. :D
 
If I recall, there were a number of Defiant-class ships at the Frontier Day gathering of the fleet in Picard. Some were in groups of four in the command groups.
 
One of the few things that they could do to change Deep Space Nine to be more consistent would be to add "-A" after that episode. That also begs the question of how many Defiant class ships existed at that time. Playing the video games, from the late 90's and early 2000's they are cheap and take a lot of damage so making a lot of them is often useful. But based on dialogue, how many would really have been in service during the war?

There were a couple in the fleet at the end of "A Call to Arms." But then every CGI fleet scene after that only ever showed the Defiant herself, and no other ships of the class. That was obviously done because the Defiant was the hero ship and they didn't want the audience to be confused as to which ship was the actual Defiant if more than one of them were on screen at any given time.

Given how many starship classes we see, Starfleet must be forever actively retiring ships if "having two types of ships operating in the same role [to be] redundant". It's also clearly a policy that isn't applied rigorously given how many Excelsiors and Mirandas we still see, which by the 2360s shouldn't be the best classes for anything.

By the TNG era they had basically been relegated to transport duty or supply ships. But then DS9 came along and made them active-duty ships.

This is the argument I have to explain the Ambassador being conspicuous by its absence in the Dominion War fleets, because they absolutely SHOULD have been there, even if only glimpsed as low-quality background models, and it sucks that the production team actively decided to not have them.

This is why I keep saying that a proposed DS9 remaster should replace all the old CGI fleet shots with different ships. But I'm not under any illusions that this will happen, even if DS9 gets remastered in the first place.

Yes, for the sake of consistency, they certainly could have done that... but they haven't. Unless of course PIC S3 takes place in an alternate timeline of course (but that's unlikely).

That, or it takes place in Picard's Nexus fantasy that he never left from ST: Generations.

I chalk it up to the writers introducing a whole slew of new ship classes from ST: Online which effectively canonized the designs, by which point they long stopped paying attention to the registries... because if they had, then the 25th century Excelsior and Stargazer would have had their predecessor registries with A suffix letters, but alas.

The Excelsior II and Sagan classes weren't STO designs FYI. And the Excelsior II's 4XXXX registries are already problematic even without suffixes, lol.

But hey, if that can happen, then an Enterprise can easily get trashed every 10 years (going through the whole alphabet effectively) and then SF could 'decide' to just start the Enterprise line from scratch with a fresh registry. :D

Don't get me started about that.
 
This is why I keep saying that a proposed DS9 remaster should replace all the old CGI fleet shots with different ships. But I'm not under any illusions that this will happen, even if DS9 gets remastered in the first place.

Oh, 100%. Absolutely this should happen. It won't, but it should. I've seen some fan videos of updated effects for the TNG remaster, like having the Enterprise-D dock on the outside of Starbase 74 as Andrew Probert originally intended, and it makes me sad that they were so conservative – in a way more conservative than the TOS ones.
 
Perhaps the Ambassador-class starships were in one of the other fleets we hear about, but never the ones that operated near Deep Space Nine. Several fleets gat mauled in those first six months of the war.
 
Perhaps, but there would be no reason to differentiate any ship in a fleet by its class. Furthermore, we saw a fleet at the end of VOY’s “Endgame” and they were all the same ships as what was used in the DS9 fleets (minus a Prometheus class.)
 
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