If it had been the Romulans

[Arpy]

The original idea for DS9 used the Romulans in the place of the Cardassians as the main baddies of the series. How might this have gone differently?

Some thoughts that come to mind are 1. the Klingon arc in Season 4 and Worf’s involvement would have had additional meaning given the intense hatred between the two peoples. 2. “In the Pale Moonlight” might have been about the murder of Legate Macet at the hands of the Dominion….I wonder who this series’ Tal Shiar spy might have been—Garok? 3. I wonder if at the end of the series the Klingons succeed in fully conquering the Romulans fulfilling that part of the future glimpsed in “All Good Things…”

And what would the station have looked like? A giant blood-green nest-like structure to nestle warbirds…or something more like the Narada, a dark dank monstrosity out of an alien nightmare?

Speaking of, would it have been the Cardassian Sun that went supernova in alternate Star Trek ‘09?

 

[Finn]

That's the first I've heard of this?

 

[NCC-73515]

There have been interesting Rommie stations in the games. Garok's dad would've been the head of the Tal Shiar. Inter Arma would've been the one episode on Cardassia

 

[Dukhat]

I’m pretty sure the Romulans were never intended to be the bad guys in DS9. The entire premise of the show was about the Bajorans and their emancipation from the Cardassians, and the Federation being brought in to govern Deep Space Nine. Where exactly did you hear otherwise?

 

[wayoung]

No, the Romulans were not the original villains of DS9.

When the first Ro episode of TNG was being written and they were figuring out her backstory, Romulans were thrown around the writers room as potentially the occupying force on Bajor, but the idea was rejected to avoid over using them. Well before DS9 was being planned.

 

[NCC-73515]

In the original story, it was the Romulans who were occupying Bajor, but Rick Berman felt the Romulans had been seen too much and, remembering "The Wounded", had the occupiers changed to the Cardassians. (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - The Official Poster Magazine, issue 4)

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Ensign_Ro_(episode)#Background_information

 

[Arpy]

I’m pretty sure the Romulans were never intended to be the bad guys in DS9. The entire premise of the show was about the Bajorans and their emancipation from the Cardassians, and the Federation being brought in to govern Deep Space Nine. Where exactly did you hear otherwise?

The Delta Flyers podcast. McNeil and Wang mentioned it.

No, the Romulans were not the original villains of DS9.

When the first Ro episode of TNG was being written and they were figuring out her backstory, Romulans were thrown around the writers room as potentially the occupying force on Bajor, but the idea was rejected to avoid over using them. Well before DS9 was being planned.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Ensign_Ro_(episode)#Background_information

Oh that’s interesting. I did wonder if both were planned at the same time and we would have seen a warbird blow up Orta’s ship. Or if for the series it would be the more generally popular Romulans and another occupied people…hey we never saw the Gorn on TNG.

That said…it might have been the Romulans if Berman hadn’t thought they’d been used enough. So…how might the series have gone?

Between the Romulans and the Ferengi, I suspect we would have gotten more ear jokes. The Romulans might have been scarier if they let them have Vulcan strength; Spock was rather scary when he smashed that metal video monitor. (Nero had it in ‘09 but we didn’t see it in the 90’s series.) I wonder if we’d see more species that operated near Romulan space, like the Corvallens Troi blew up in “Face of the Enemy” or the Barolians we only ever heard were trading partners with the Romulans…the Kobheerians of this alternate show.

Sloane would tell Bashir that after the Dominion War the Star-Empire would be occupied, the overzealous Klingons licking their wounds, and it would be the Federation and the Cardassian Union left to compete for the Quadrant.

 

[Lynx]

The original idea for DS9 used the Romulans in the place of the Cardassians as the main baddies of the series. How might this have gone differently?

Some thoughts that come to mind are 1. the Klingon arc in Season 4 and Worf’s involvement would have had additional meaning given the intense hatred between the two peoples. 2. “In the Pale Moonlight” might have been about the murder of Legate Macet at the hands of the Dominion….I wonder who this series’ Tal Shiar spy might have been—Garok? 3. I wonder if at the end of the series the Klingons succeed in fully conquering the Romulans fulfilling that part of the future glimpsed in “All Good Things…”

And what would the station have looked like? A giant blood-green nest-like structure to nestle warbirds…or something more like the Narada, a dark dank monstrosity out of an alien nightmare?

Speaking of, would it have been the Cardassian Sun that went supernova in alternate Star Trek ‘09?

I don't think that it would have been a good idea.
The Romulans are very different from the Cardassians. Despite certain hostility to the Federation, the Romulans are more diplomatic, easier to negotiate with and more cunning in their actions when they decide to act hostile. Not to mention that they would never have joined the Dominion.

The Cardassians are more direct in their actions and more brutal than the Romulans. As such, they are actually a better adversary than the Romulans, in fact they are the best "bad guys" ever in Star Trek. As such, they were perfect for DS9.

 

[Arpy]

I don't think that it would have been a good idea.
The Romulans are very different from the Cardassians. Despite certain hostility to the Federation, the Romulans are more diplomatic, easier to negotiate with and more cunning in their actions when they decide to act hostile. Not to mention that they would never have joined the Dominion.

The Cardassians are more direct in their actions and more brutal than the Romulans. As such, they are actually a better adversary than the Romulans, in fact they are the best "bad guys" ever in Star Trek. As such, they were perfect for DS9.

See it’s funny you say that because their characterizations were the reverse earlier on. The Cardassians were slippery and indirect in “The Wounded” and “Ensign Ro,” respectively. In “Chain of Command” they secretly lured Picard into a trap while their fleet hid in a nebula waiting to pounce. In The Circle trilogy they used Kressari botanical DNA traders and in The Maquis two-parter the Xepolites as intermediaries to support subversive movements.

The Romulans meanwhile were stealthy but openly calculating chess masters with supercilious but direct dispositions. I think as DS9 went on the two powers almost switched personalities. Of course it had previously happened between TOS and TNG with the Romulans and the Klingons as well.

I dunno, I think DS9 could have established and explored the Romulans (and the Cardassians) any way it found interesting at the time, not least in part due to the performances of the actors as the series went on.

 

[Arpy]

Of course, chaotic reality does not unfold just so, but in a fun Mirror Universe kind of way, I do still imagine Andrew Robinson being cast as “Garok” on this alternate station. My how different he might have looked, playing more or less the same character.

I do see them tapping Carolyn Seymour to come back, as well as Andreas Katsulas and Denise Crosby…holy hell maybe in a flashback as Tasha Yar at some point…over the course of the series. I don’t know if any of them are its Dukat. …some great Romulans over the years to follow up on. Maybe Admiral Mendak from “Data’s Day” and all that juicy intel Subcommander T’Pel brought back.

I wonder if in a two-parter crossover event (as with Bashir and Birthright) they use Tuvok as a Federation spy to infiltrate the Maquis masquerading as a Romulan before his & Chakotay’s ship is lost in the Badlands. Could help launch the next series VOYAGER…in which Martha Hackett is Chakotay’s ex…T’Rul.

 

[Tosk]

The Delta Flyers podcast. McNeil and Wang mentioned it.

With all due respect, you're misremembering. Robbie was referencing the episode Ensign Ro (without actually naming it.)

"...it started on TNG in the fifth season. It introduced the Bajorans and originally, I read, the concept was that it, the Bajorans were, at a...in, uh, in a war with the Romulans, that was the original concept. Berman was just like, "Eh, Romulans, we've seen a lot of Romulans, let's use the Cardassians, let's do that."

 

[XCV330]

every bad-guy alien species has been some kind of attempt to remake some popular era of Earth's cultures, lore, and history as the bad guys. Each had certain attributes

If you looked at the TNG/DS9 era from the standpoint of a classic Sid Meier Civilization game, each civilization gets two of the following main traits:
Commercial Expansionist Industrious Militaristic Religious Scientific Seafaring

Klingons: Religious, Militaristic
Romulans: Scientific, Expansionist
Borg: Expansionist, Spacefaring
Dominion: Industrious, Commercial
Ferengi: Commercial, Spacefaring
Cardassians: Industrious, Militaristic
Federation: Religious, Scientific


Cardassians are very statist and paranoid, much like the Romulans, but they do not seem to be as technologically advanced or successful. For me, they are the hardest to categorize because they're not particularly well suited for anything. There is a lot of overlap between the Romulans and Cardassians. However, ultimately the spoons are just wish.com Romulans.

(I wrote a long agonizingly dreary explanation why I made the choices I made but I like you all, well most of you. Except maybe that one person. And I don't want to bore you to death, except maybe that one person, so i deleted it and wrote this instead. You're welcome. )

 

[Arpy]

I'm having fun thinking about different what-ifs and I'm seeing a couple of different "alternate universe" versions of the series.

Starting point: blank slate. The Bajorans as established in "Ensign Ro" were oppressed by the Cardassians, so who else might the Romulans might have oppressed for this series? Budgetary constraints sidelining the afore-mentioned Gorn, and following the classic Trek tradition that DS9 certainly exemplified of the good-guy aliens looking less scary than the bad-guy ones, one rather far out idea from the depths of the Roddenberrian subconscious in us all is using the Deltans. They certainly have less makeup and they haven't been seen or heard of since the previous century. What if Delta IV wasn't a full Federation member at the time that it was conquered by the Romulan Star-Empire? I've been jonesing for a more adult Star Trek for a long time, and using the Deltans might certainly provide some of that. I wonder if the murder investigation in "Necessary Evil" might have flashed back to the morning after a Romulan bacchanal. Way more sex in this one, including between Garok and Bashir.

Starting point: "Ensign Ro". Say we use the Romulans as baddies and keep the Bajorans as goodies, but what if the series uses some of the actors initially offered/pursued for the parts, including ER's Eric La Salle as Sisko, "The Perfect Mate"'s Famke Janssen as Jadzia Dax, Michelle Forbes as Ro Laren, and Terminator 2's Robert Patrick as a more "phaser-first-ask-questions-later" gunslinging frontier lawman Odo....gotta say, I never really liked the idea of Kira and Odo, but Forbes and Patrick might have had some interesting chemistry.

 

[The Emissary]

I never knew this, but it's an interesting concept. One of the things I thought was odd is the Klingons/Romulans are "Empires" but they had not conquered any alien species. I think ENT had Klingons harass some moisture farmers (:P) or something. I just chalked it up to their empire just being many colonies of their own people.

So it would have been interesting to see a species under the Romulan's thumb. Also, in the past, warfare with Romulans is unique as they do more subterfuge and covert operations. It was one of the things I wish we had seen during the Dominion War instead of throwing ships at other ships.

However, I really think the Cardassians were a better choice for the show. The Romulans had already been overused in TNG. One of the things I loved about DS9 was the different alien designs like the Cardassians, Founders, Jem'Hadar, etc. I feel like we'd lose that if its just evil Spocks running around.

The idea of losing Marc Alaimo's Dukat is just depressing. Even if he came back and hammed it up at Tebok, I'd still miss Dukat.

 

[Lynx]

See it’s funny you say that because their characterizations were the reverse earlier on. The Cardassians were slippery and indirect in “The Wounded” and “Ensign Ro,” respectively. In “Chain of Command” they secretly lured Picard into a trap while their fleet hid in a nebula waiting to pounce. In The Circle trilogy they used Kressari botanical DNA traders and in The Maquis two-parter the Xepolites as intermediaries to support subversive movements.

The Romulans meanwhile were stealthy but openly calculating chess masters with supercilious but direct dispositions. I think as DS9 went on the two powers almost switched personalities. Of course it had previously happened between TOS and TNG with the Romulans and the Klingons as well.

I dunno, I think DS9 could have established and explored the Romulans (and the Cardassians) any way it found interesting at the time, not least in part due to the performances of the actors as the series went on.

I'm not sure.
I still get the impression that the Romulans are a bit more.......well, let's say respectable in many areas than the Cardassians.

Not to mention that they never have showed up any interest in conquering federation territory in the same way as the Cardassians did.

I find the Romulans interesting but the Cardassians are a better adversary in my opinion. At least when it comes to the events in DS9.

 

[Lynx]

I never knew this, but it's an interesting concept. One of the things I thought was odd is the Klingons/Romulans are "Empires" but they had not conquered any alien species. I think ENT had Klingons harass some moisture farmers (:P) or something. I just chalked it up to their empire just being many colonies of their own people.

So it would have been interesting to see a species under the Romulan's thumb. Also, in the past, warfare with Romulans is unique as they do more subterfuge and covert operations. It was one of the things I wish we had seen during the Dominion War instead of throwing ships at other ships.

However, I really think the Cardassians were a better choice for the show. The Romulans had already been overused in TNG. One of the things I loved about DS9 was the different alien designs like the Cardassians, Founders, Jem'Hadar, etc. I feel like we'd lose that if its just evil Spocks running around.

The idea of losing Marc Alaimo's Dukat is just depressing. Even if he came back and hammed it up at Tebok, I'd still miss Dukat.

I agree.

And I would have missed Garak!

 

[NCC-73515]

I think both actors doing the same as Garok and Tukat would've worked just as well

 

[Arpy]

I completely forgot Marc Alamo as Commander Tebok. Maybe he and Subcommander Thei (also from TNG’s “The Neutral Zone”) could have been in command of the warbird that ruled the system with an iron fist.

Or who knows, maybe he was Macet on undercover assignment all along.

But there you go, Alaimo still as the main baddie Romulan on the series.

 

[Shawnster]

That said…it might have been the Romulans if Berman hadn’t thought they’d been used enough.

Seriously? Used enough? That's a joke.

 

[Arpy]

One thing I thought was missing from DS9 was showing more of the machinations and rivalries and politics on Dukat’s end. Who were his superiors, friends, and enemies? It’s one of the things I love about the books The Never-Ending Sacrifice and A Stitch in Time. I’m wondering about series using Tebok and his comrade Thei as one faction (the main one we’d see in charge of the Deltan problem) maybe against Mendak and Toreth trying to take over. At one point (maybe during The Maquis two-parter where Dukat seemed to be sacrificed by Legate Parn and his superiors) they succeed at neutralizing Admiral Mendak, only it turns out they do so by Thei betraying Tebok to form a personal and professional alliance with Toreth or something. Romulans so love their schemes and power struggles. Tebok is still the baddie, but he has new masters and a revenge to plot.

I’m kind of digging the thought of a pale bald pointy-eared lovechild Ziyal in “Indiscretion” later, too. Though I’m imagining her ultimate murder is half-motivated by Dumar’s jealousy that she chose Garok over him.