Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

[Starkers]

No, it's highly revisionist. Keaton's Bruce is the only one who's incapable of putting on the act, the public persona of the debonair billionaire playboy that's just as important and useful a disguise as the Bat-cowl is.




That's a trite, hackneyed argument, and an invalid one, because it's applying real-world logic to a fantasy universe. Bruce Wayne lives in a world where dressing up in a themed costume to fight crime is as normal as wearing a tall white hat to be a chef, or wearing a bright jersey with numbers on it to play sports. For that matter, there's real-life precedent in other cultures for wearing animal masks for symbolic or ritual purposes. Japanese samurai often wore frightening animal- or demon-themed masks on the front of their helmets. So to say "It's insane to wear animal-themed armor" is grossly ethnocentric.

Besides, one thing the Nolan films did very well was explaining that the bat costume is not reflective of Bruce's psychology, but that of his targets. It's a calculated choice to use a symbol to strike fear in the superstitious, cowardly lot he battles, and to use the pageantry of the Batman to distract observers from seeing the man underneath.

I also loathe the cynicism of the idea that only a mentally ill person would fight crime. Bruce Wayne has selflessly dedicated his life and resources to the exclusive task of serving other people. That's basically the same thing people do when they give up worldly goods to become priests or nuns or monks. I hate it when people look at such a profound gesture of compassion and self-abnegation and see it only as something unhealthy and deranged, something to mock and discredit. It's a rejection of the very thing that makes superhero stories meaningful.

And that's part of why Burton's Batman never worked for me -- because he's the director who most fully embraced the idea that Batman was a symptom of Bruce's dysfunction, rather than a calculated tool of a hyperfunctional genius. Also because he was the first filmmaker to portray Batman that way, and it's had too much of an influence on the public's perception of the character since then.

Wayne--as covered in his very first published appearance--used the image of a bat for its effect on criminals, not as a reflection or projection of his own personality. If Keaton's Wayne/Batman appeared to have a few screws loose, it is due to Tim Burton using that same type of character template in too many of his films. He did not understand a single thing about what motivates Wayne to fight crime; he was too busy turning a psychologically and physically strong man into a "technogeek" (Burton's words from a 1989 NBC interview), and not a "Square-jawed hero" (again, Burton's words from the same NBC interview). Burton's own hang-ups and insecurities had no place in a Batman film, but he was allowed to mold the character to fit his issues, hence casting a short, balding, nonathletic comedic actor as one of the most imposing of all comic book superheroes.

Well that's me told

Seriously you can dress it up any way you want but Bruce's response to his parents' deaths is not remotely normal or healthy. He could react in any number of ways, he could become a cop, become a DA like Harvey, he could invest his billions in social programs, instead he dresses up at night and goes out to punch criminals. And yeah it's fantasy I get that (though worth noting that in the films outside of the Snyder films in each case Bats has been the first masked hero and his very appearance has encouraged the masked lunatics.)

Frankly "hyperfunctional genius" sounds suspiciously like the kind of nonsense some people say about Musk but hey, this is an MCU thread and it isn't like I hate Bats, quite the reverse he's probably my favourite superhero, I just obviously like a different take on the character to you, but the good thing is that Batman is like Dr Who or James Bond, if you don't like one incarnation chances are sooner or later one will come along you do like.

 

[MikHutch]

I feel Bruce Wayne wood be insulted to be compared to Musk

 

[Christopher]

Seriously you can dress it up any way you want but Bruce's response to his parents' deaths is not remotely normal or healthy.

Within the genre of heroic fiction, it's hardly atypical. Who wants their heroes to be "normal?" Heroes are aspirational, idealized figures, people who are exceptional in their courage and dedication and goodness, people who willingly make sacrifices and take risks that a "normal" person never would. The fact that fictional heroes are not normal, that they're better than normal, is exactly what makes them appealing.

So it's specious to apply arguments about real-world "normality" as a way to discredit and deconstruct imaginary heroes. And it's deeply incongruous to attempt to invoke real-world expectations of human behavior to justify a fictional universe as hyperstylized and fanciful as Tim Burton's.

(though worth noting that in the films outside of the Snyder films in each case Bats has been the first masked hero and his very appearance has encouraged the masked lunatics.)

Which is why the "only a crazy person would wear a bat mask" argument merely betrays the speaker's lack of literacy about the superhero genre beyond what they've seen in the movies and TV. It's an argument from ignorance and thus lacks value.

Frankly "hyperfunctional genius" sounds suspiciously like the kind of nonsense some people say about Musk

That's a thoroughly bizarre non-sequitur comparison. Why even bring him into the conversation? Batman has been portrayed as a figure of exceptional brilliance and hypercompetence since more than 30 years before Elon Musk was born. And he's just one of many fictional characters over the decades who've fit that archetype, Sherlock Holmes and Captain Nemo among them. Musk didn't create the archetype, he's just managed to trick people into believing he's an example of it (though that illusion has rather fallen apart over the last few years).

 

[MikHutch]

I don't think Bruce's response is typical but maybe there's a case to be made for street level heroes to try a different way

 

[JD]

Within the genre of heroic fiction, it's hardly atypical. Who wants their heroes to be "normal?" Heroes are aspirational, idealized figures, people who are exceptional in their courage and dedication and goodness, people who willingly make sacrifices and take risks that a "normal" person never would. The fact that fictional heroes are not normal, that they're better than normal, is exactly what makes them appealing.

So it's specious to apply arguments about real-world "normality" as a way to discredit and deconstruct imaginary heroes. And it's deeply incongruous to attempt to invoke real-world expectations of human behavior to justify a fictional universe as hyperstylized and fanciful as Tim Burton's.




Which is why the "only a crazy person would wear a bat mask" argument merely betrays the speaker's lack of literacy about the superhero genre beyond what they've seen in the movies and TV. It's an argument from ignorance and thus lacks value.

Yeah, Bruce's reaction to his parents death is perfectly normal in a story like this. How many hundreds heroic characters have we seen who's heroism was inspired by the death of loved one? That's all this is, and in a superhero universe, becoming a masked vigilante is going to always be the direction the character's heroism is going to go. If this was a cop story, he'd have become a cop, or a doctor in a doctor if it was a doctor story, ect.

 

[Skipper]

I feel Bruce Wayne wood be insulted to be compared to Musk

Yep. Antics aside, Musk loves to be the public face of his companies. Bruce Wayne is content to pretend to be a socialite (until recently, it's complicated) with little interest in what his companies do.

 

[MikHutch]

Plus Musk is annoying

 

[Starkers]

Within the genre of heroic fiction, it's hardly atypical. Who wants their heroes to be "normal?" Heroes are aspirational, idealized figures, people who are exceptional in their courage and dedication and goodness, people who willingly make sacrifices and take risks that a "normal" person never would. The fact that fictional heroes are not normal, that they're better than normal, is exactly what makes them appealing.

So it's specious to apply arguments about real-world "normality" as a way to discredit and deconstruct imaginary heroes. And it's deeply incongruous to attempt to invoke real-world expectations of human behavior to justify a fictional universe as hyperstylized and fanciful as Tim Burton's.

And you're telling me no one has ever injected comic book superheroes with real world normality? That comic book superheroes are never, ever flawed? I know this is spurious assertion and so do you.

Which is why the "only a crazy person would wear a bat mask" argument merely betrays the speaker's lack of literacy about the superhero genre beyond what they've seen in the movies and TV. It's an argument from ignorance and thus lacks value.

Wow. Nice snobbery and gate keeping there. I was specifically making a point about the films. I've read comic books, I've written comic books so don't try that bollocks. And so what if I haven't read every issue of The Brave and the Bold like you obviously have, doesn't make my point of view any less valid.

That's a thoroughly bizarre non-sequitur comparison. Why even bring him into the conversation? Batman has been portrayed as a figure of exceptional brilliance and hypercompetence since more than 30 years before Elon Musk was born. And he's just one of many fictional characters over the decades who've fit that archetype, Sherlock Holmes and Captain Nemo among them. Musk didn't create the archetype, he's just managed to trick people into believing he's an example of it (though that illusion has rather fallen apart over the last few years).

Yeah the Musk comment was a cheap shot, but interesting to compare Bruce with Holmes, for all his hypercompetance Holmes is a fucked up individual, there's no denying that, and I don't see how Bruce wasn't fucked up to some greater or lesser extent by what happened to him as a child.

 

[MikHutch]

For me the bigger question is why do street levelers still approach crime like it's the 70s?

 

[PlainSimpleJoel]

There are reports on threads that She Hulk will be getting season 2. Not sure when.

 

[MikHutch]

I hope so

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

There are reports on threads that She Hulk will be getting season 2. Not sure when.

Nice!

I'm absolutely fine being in the minority on this, but I loved her show and think it's a highlight of the current phase.

 

[Christopher]

And you're telling me no one has ever injected comic book superheroes with real world normality? That comic book superheroes are never, ever flawed? I know this is spurious assertion and so do you.

Okay, you're willfully ignoring my actual point -- which is that it's specious and mean-spiritedly deconstructive to argue that Batman is insane because he behaves the same way as countless other heroic fictional characters -- in order to substitute a completely unrelated straw man you can easily knock down. So I won't even respond to that nonsense.

Yeah the Musk comment was a cheap shot, but interesting to compare Bruce with Holmes, for all his hypercompetance Holmes is a fucked up individual, there's no denying that, and I don't see how Bruce wasn't fucked up to some greater or lesser extent by what happened to him as a child.

There's a huge, huge difference in intent between saying that a character has a traumatic past and saying that they're mentally ill. It's not only a misunderstanding of fictional character motivations, but it's ignorant and ableist, lumping all different forms of psychological issues into a single stigmatizing category.

What I hate about the "Batman is insane" notion is the willful refusal to recognize that a person can endure trauma and turn it into something positive, something that helps others. Batman is a constructive coping mechanism for Bruce. He's turned his own pain into a motivation to save other people from enduring the same pain. To look at something that noble and see only sickness is incredibly cynical and heartless. Some people just have a twisted need to tear down anything positive. They think it makes them clever to say that heroic characters are actually evil or insane, that the Federation is actually a dictatorship, that Palpatine was right, whatever. But they're not seeing some great insight others have missed, they just get off on tearing down what other people enjoy.

 

[MikHutch]

Nice!

I'm absolutely fine being in the minority on this, but I loved her show and think it's a highlight of the current phase.

I also liked the show. But I liked most of phase 4. She Hulk is a good example to me of low stakes show.

 

[Caretaker]

There are reports on threads that She Hulk will be getting season 2. Not sure when.

That and I've seen reports of Ms. Marvel season two and Moon Knight season two on Instagram (taking all of this with a grain of salt). I'm good with all of these shows returning.

 

[TerryTrek]

The source is 'DanielRPK'

He claims Marvel is "discussing" doing Season 2s for those shows.

As to whether it actually happens in Marvel's current mess, who knows.

 

[MikHutch]

True, we shouldn't put too much stock into rumors

 

[TerryTrek]

DanielRPK has a good track record.

It just need to be clarified that his rumor was Marvel is 'discussing' future seasons of those shows. Nothing is really being greenlit or confirmed.

They've already got a backlog of unfinished D+ content that they need to deal with.

 

[MikHutch]

Tbh I'm wary of rumors after that whole Variety piece turned out to be nonsense. And apparently even people are misreading DanielRPK's statements

 

[Tosk]

Wow. Nice snobbery and gate keeping there. I was specifically making a point about the films. I've read comic books, I've written comic books so don't try that bollocks. And so what if I haven't read every issue of The Brave and the Bold like you obviously have, doesn't make my point of view any less valid.

Also, I find the comment a [redacted] way of ignoring the "post, not poster" rule.

[Redacted because if I used the word I wanted to, it would show what a hypocrite I am. ]