Garrett Wang

[Oddish]

Fun fact. If you search the phrase on the board, only a single user actually ever uses it. I bet you can guess who.

SFDebris uses it too. He may not be a user here, but he's got 10.6 million subscribers. So, it's a safe bet that the term has made its rounds.

And you know what? Even if the precise phrase isn't used as commonly as I thought, the overarching issue remains. It's very clear that this aspect of the plot was a deliberate, mean-spirited action by the showrunners. You can choose to applaud them, revile them, or just not care... and I have the exact same choice.

 

[Akiraprise]

this aspect of the plot was a deliberate, mean-spirited action by the showrunners.

It was 100 percent deliberate, as the nature of writing is. Mean-spirited though? I don't know, as weird as this seems, TPTB that run shows don't get as invested in the minutiae as we fans do. From various accounts back then Garrett was a bit of a pain in the butt, especially in S3. I kind of doubt that they felt the way to punish him was not to promote his character though only because at the end of the day, for a lot of the folks that work on these shows, it's just a paycheck. They appreciate the job and like what they do but when it's over they move on to the next project. Depending on the contract the way to punish an unruly actor is to cut their lines or even write the character out of an episode, which did in fact happen to Garrett.

 

[at Quark's]

^I agree that it's doubtful that not promoting a character in itself would be a punishment. However not developing a character might be. (Not allowing an actor expanded opportunities with more interesting material, only letting him say stock phrases such as 'sensor resolution is at 87% efficiency, captain' and 'there's some kind of interference' ) for a while.

 

[Akiraprise]

^ I can't argue that point. They did deny him the opportunity to direct so the actor clearly did rub them the wrong way.

 

[DonIago]

The two instances that immediately come to mind where I thought the writers themselves were making fun of the character's lack of promotion, and it came off as at least self-aware and at most openly poking fun of their own character, were when Tom found a little box on his chair and Harry openly remarked upon it, and when Harry's talking with his parents and they comment upon it (unless I'm misremembering that).

The one that wouldn't have come to my mind unless I'd seen it brought up here would be the time when Harry confronted Janeway about it directly, and they ended up dodging Kim's underlying point. Make of Janeway's handling of that what you will.

 

[Oddish]

It was 100 percent deliberate, as the nature of writing is. Mean-spirited though? I don't know, as weird as this seems, TPTB that run shows don't get as invested in the minutiae as we fans do.

Maybe not. But it seems like this one was really important to them. Otherwise, when people wrote in and demanded to know why didn't Harry get a little box under his chair, they'd have just given them what they wanted.

From various accounts back then Garrett was a bit of a pain in the butt, especially in S3.

Then they should have either sacked him and eliminated his character, or kept him on and developed his character. There were several opportunities to write Harry out, with or without killing him.

The two instances that immediately come to mind where I thought the writers themselves were making fun of the character's lack of promotion, and it came off as at least self-aware and at most openly poking fun of their own character, were when Tom found a little box on his chair and Harry openly remarked upon it, and when Harry's talking with his parents and they comment upon it (unless I'm misremembering that).

Ou aren't. Near as I can figure, the scene with Harry not finding a box occured at the end of S6. Then, in the interim, viewers wrote in complaining about this. The scenes in "Nightingale" and "Author Author" were the writers basically responding to their complaints with a raised middle finger.

That's why I say that keeping Harry at ensign was very important to them... antagonizing one's audience is never a good idea, after all.

The one that wouldn't have come to my mind unless I'd seen it brought up here would be the time when Harry confronted Janeway about it directly, and they ended up dodging Kim's underlying point. Make of Janeway's handling of that what you

I consider it character assassination against Janeway. The Kathryn Janeway I know would not have responded to Harry's legitimate concern with accusation. She would have (a) addressed his concern, or (b) explained why she couldn't (given that Tom had just been promoted, there was no rational way to do this).

 

[at Quark's]

Maybe not. But it seems like this one was really important to them. Otherwise, when people wrote in and demanded to know why didn't Harry get a little box under his chair, they'd have just given them what they wanted.

Similarly, I still wonder why they wrote Fury. They must have known part of the fans weren't happy with her leaving. Then why bring her back only to do something horrible to her, rather than just leaving her alone? And if it had been a spectacular story (say on the Year of Hell level), I still might have kind of understood, but even the climax of the story was lame.

 

[Farscape One]

Similarly, I still wonder why they wrote Fury. They must have known part of the fans weren't happy with her leaving. Then why bring her back only to do something horrible to her, rather than just leaving her alone? And if it had been a spectacular story (say on the Year of Hell level), I still might have kind of understood, but even the climax of the story was lame.

Until recently, I called "FURY" the worst episode of VOY because it did a terrible disservice to Kes and the story didn't make a lick of sense.

I realized that "UNIMATRIX ZERO" is far worse, so that became the new worst of VOY for me.

 

[at Quark's]

I realized that "UNIMATRIX ZERO" is far worse, so that became the new worst of VOY for me.

So, what is it that makes Unimatrix Zero worse to you?

 

[Farscape One]

So, what is it that makes Unimatrix Zero worse to you?

Rare is the episode that damages a character, a species, AND dilutes the trauma of a character from another series. This does all three, and then some. First, this insults Kim... not only did the writers never promote him, but they threw that fact in our face with the dialogue of him not getting a box on his chair. Second, it was the final nail in the coffin for defanging the Borg... they go after a TACTICAL cube and get assimilated ON PURPOSE, totally destroying the terror and horror of assimilation. Which brings me to the third thing... that COMPLETELY undercuts not only what Seven went through, but Picard. Assimilation is supposed to be a horrific, terrible thing... but it's treated here as just something to shrug off next week.

 

[at Quark's]

^It's been a long time since I saw that ep, and I had all but forgotten about that nonchalant attitude regarding assimilation, but yeah, that annoyed me too, back in the day.

 

[Weyoun 251]

Maybe it was the age I was when Voyager came out but I've never really until I found this BBS considered his rank and that was because, short of the odd joke here or there, he was generally treated with respect and as an "equal" in terms of his ability to do his role as well as anyone.

Yes absolutely if we treat this as "real" then he should have been recognised for that but I think it is also easy to forget that there was rarely, if ever, a feeling of him being talked down to or not being valued

 

[Farscape One]

Maybe it was the age I was when Voyager came out but I've never really until I found this BBS considered his rank and that was because, short of the odd joke here or there, he was generally treated with respect and as an "equal" in terms of his ability to do his role as well as anyone.

Yes absolutely if we treat this as "real" then he should have been recognised for that but I think it is also easy to forget that there was rarely, if ever, a feeling of him being talked down to or not being valued

Except when he was 'bucking for a promotion'. Or got a reprimand for getting laid.

 

[Weyoun 251]

Except when he was 'bucking for a promotion'. Or got a reprimand for getting laid.

Think him getting in trouble for getting his end away went over my head due to only being 10 or so when it came out.

 

[Oddish]

Maybe it was the age I was when Voyager came out but I've never really until I found this BBS considered his rank and that was because, short of the odd joke here or there, he was generally treated with respect and as an "equal" in terms of his ability to do his role as well as anyone.

And that goes with the "no character development" issue.

Two characters on that show who had absolutely appalling development were Harry and B'Elanna. B'Elanna began the show as a violent, dangerous hothead who couldn't control her temper, and she grew into a valuable, capable crew member... in one episode. And she spent the next 170 or so mostly wrestling with her Klingon side, making peace with it by episode's end, and then forgetting what she learned by the start of the next episode focused on her.

But as bad as that was, it's better than Harry's, because there was none. He started out as a naive but very capable officer. He ended as the same. He wasn't really an ensign at all, we saw how ensigns live on TNG's "Lower Decks". He seemed more like a senior officer who hadn't put enough stickum on his second pip.

 

[Weyoun 251]

And that goes with the "no character development" issue.

Two characters on that show who had absolutely appalling development were Harry and B'Elanna. B'Elanna began the show as a violent, dangerous hothead who couldn't control her temper, and she grew into a valuable, capable crew member... in one episode. And she spent the next 170 or so mostly wrestling with her Klingon side, making peace with it by episode's end, and then forgetting what she learned by the start of the next episode focused on her.

But as bad as that was, it's better than Harry's, because there was none. He started out as a naive but very capable officer. He ended as the same. He wasn't really an ensign at all, we saw how ensigns live on TNG's "Lower Decks". He seemed more like a senior officer who hadn't put enough stickum on his second pip.

So if we take the average of their developments you would have just about one normal development ;p

But yeah, you are right - think with Voyager being one of my lesser watched I kind of keep the views on characters pretty close to how they were when I actually watched it whereas I’ve invested far more in the analysis of other shows if you get me.

Tend to treat your view (not to kiss your arse) with Voy as one I can put stock in to be comparable to how I would have thought had I been older when I watched it

 

[Oddish]

The tragedy was how much they could have fixed with mere seconds of added dialogue.

 

[fireproof78]

Mean-spirited though? I don't know, as weird as this seems, TPTB that run shows don't get as invested in the minutiae as we fans do.

This is my larger question. Especially with a show like VOY that skewed towards maintaining the status quo. Yes, I'm aware of minor changes and that Kim's certainly could have been one. But, one, the writers are not always the same people, as various writers came and went during the show's production life, and two, there was probably more to it than just "I feel like being mean to this fictional character."

I get how it comes across now but I think "Mean spirted" is a hard sell, at least as the sole reason. Apathy probably being more likely.

 

[Oddish]

I get how it comes across now but I think "Mean spirted" is a hard sell, at least as the sole reason. Apathy probably being more likely.

Apathy would be more like the following...

UNDERLING: "We got quite a few letters from viewers over the break. Apparently, they don't like it that Tom got promoted and Harry's still an ensign."

HEAD WRITER (rolls eyes): "Yeah, whatever. Can we fit a promotion scene in anywhere?"

UNDERLING (goes through scripts): "'Discombobulation' is still a little short. And it starts with a staff meeting."

CHIEF WRITER: "Fine. Just pencil it in. Janeway calls Harry to front, says: 'As captain of this ship, yadda yadda yadda', you know the drill. Then everyone claps and then the comm beeps and the Threat of the Week shows up."

UNDERLING: "I'll have it ready by this afternoon."

 

[fireproof78]

Apathy would be more like the following...

UNDERLING: "We got quite a few letters from viewers over the break. Apparently, they don't like it that Tom got promoted and Harry's still an ensign."

HEAD WRITER (rolls eyes): "Yeah, whatever. Can we fit a promotion scene in anywhere?"

UNDERLING (goes through scripts): "'Discombobulation' is still a little short. And it starts with a staff meeting."

CHIEF WRITER: "Fine. Just pencil it in. Janeway calls Harry to front, says: 'As captain of this ship, yadda yadda yadda', you know the drill. Then everyone claps and then the comm beeps and the Threat of the Week shows up."

UNDERLING: "I'll have it ready by this afternoon."

That's not apathy.

Apathy is getting the letter and putting it on a pile to get around to eventually and eventually never comes.