Garrett Wang

[Akiraprise]

Since I shut the latest Harry Kim not getting promoted digression thread, but I'm genuinely curious what the others here think:

"I do agree that the Harry not getting promoted bit is wearing a bit stale. Not just on TrekBBS. I see it all over X, YouTube, and Facebook too in the various Trek groups out there. Not sure exactly why, after almost 30 years, it's become a thing again."

Why has this become such a hot water cooler topic after so much time has passed? I'm seeing it more and more. Quick drive-byes of him not getting a pip.

 

[Oddish]

Why has this become such a hot water cooler topic after so much time has passed? I'm seeing it more and more. Quick drive-byes of him not getting a pip.

My theory? Aside from Janeway in "Nemesis", most of the Trek characters' fates went unknown for nearly 20 years. Then, suddenly, we see Seven return in PIC, Tom Paris back in LD, Tuvok in both, Chakotay (and the EMH soon enough) in PRO. That leaves Harry as one of the few whose fate remains unknown, and naturally people wonder about him.

And yes, any time the subject of Harry comes up, his rank is one of the first things mentioned. In part, it's because his lack of promotion was so bizarre. Every other main-cast or recurring ensign in TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY went on to bigger and better things. And in part, it's because Harry was so underdeveloped, there's not much else to talk about. He was Tom's pal, he played the clarinet, and... uhhh...

 

[Akiraprise]

He was Tom's pal, he played the clarinet, and... uhhh...

He caught the Borg Queen's eye.

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(Yes, I know it was just to get Janeway's GOAT [har...har] to threaten her boy.)

I do hope we see him turn up in PRO as first officer of VOY-A and not as an ensign.

 

[Phaser Two]

Since I shut the latest Harry Kim not getting promoted digression thread, but I'm genuinely curious what the others here think:

"I do agree that the Harry not getting promoted bit is wearing a bit stale. Not just on TrekBBS. I see it all over X, YouTube, and Facebook too in the various Trek groups out there. Not sure exactly why, after almost 30 years, it's become a thing again."

Why has this become such a hot water cooler topic after so much time has passed? I'm seeing it more and more. Quick drive-byes of him not getting a pip.

Not sure. But Garrett himself has a terrific attitude about it, and honestly the constant harping on it by fans, raising it everywhere when it's not relevant, is just silly. He's obviously going to be a higher rank when he appears again in canon, which is probably not far in the future since it almost happened at least once.

 

[fireproof78]

Why has this become such a hot water cooler topic after so much time has passed? I'm seeing it more and more. Quick drive-byes of him not getting a pip.

Probably because of Picard and Lower Decks and Prodigy shining a light on Voyager crew members post Voyager. But, we dont have Harry's fate so the "eternal ensign" jokes get repeated but no longer carry playfulness but mean spiritedness.

 

[Oddish]

It was mean-spirited from the beginning. And it was important to them, important enough that even when the viewers started complaining, they kept at it.

 

[fireproof78]

It was mean-spirited from the beginning. And it was important to them, important enough that even when the viewers started complaining, they kept at it.

I was referring to fans.

 

[Oddish]

I know. "Poor, dumb Harry Kim" is a very common expression among Trek fans.

 

[DonIago]

I find it funny in-universe (WTF Janeway??) and sad out-of-universe (WTF Writers??), and I've probably made jokes about it, but I don't know whether they'd be considered mean-spirited. I find the jokes about Kirk's womanizing, for instance, more off-color (and inaccurate), and those have been going on for much longer. I'm also very, very, very tired of certain types of comments regarding Helen Noel and some other female characters in the franchise, which at times veer into justifying the general public's stereotypical understanding of people who enjoy Star Trek.

On another note, I wish the Borg Queen's comment about seeing Harry soon had actually been a plot point instead of a one-off bit of weirdness.

 

[Phaser Two]

I find the jokes about Kirk's womanizing, for instance, more off-color (and inaccurate), and those have been going on for much longer.

Yeah, those are dumb too. Inaccurate and so boring.

I'm also very, very, very tired of certain types of comments regarding Helen Noel and some other female characters in the franchise, which at times veer into justifying the general public's stereotypical understanding of people who enjoy Star Trek.

Well . . . I mean, for me it's not Helen Noel but Deela and Odona, but I think fans have to be able to say they found certain actors attractive without it being an automatic turnoff or offense against decency. For what it's worth, I found Shatner - and on Voyager, Beltran - extremely attractive to the point of being mesmerizing, so it's not solely male sexism.

 

[Tosk]

I've made jokes about Harry's rank many times. And I will again. It's an easy shorthand for making fun of all the other problems I have with the writing of VOY.

 

[DonIago]

Well . . . I mean, for me it's not Helen Noel but Deela and Odona, but I think fans have to be able to say they found certain actors attractive without it being an automatic turnoff or offense against decency. For what it's worth, I found Shatner - and on Voyager, Beltran - extremely attractive to point of being mesmerizing, so it's not solely male sexism.

Of course. And there are ways to say it, as you did, that are less salacious than others.

 

[Oddish]

I find it funny in-universe (WTF Janeway??) and sad out-of-universe (WTF Writers??), and I've probably made jokes about it, but I don't know whether they'd be considered mean-spirited.

I think everybody cracks jokes about the hapless character from time to time... me included. Seems to be human nature. Sadly, in light of what the showrunners were likely trying to do by keeping Harry at ensign, I feel like we've all been giving the bullies what they want.

On another note, I wish the Borg Queen's comment about seeing Harry soon had actually been a plot point instead of a one-off bit of weirdness.

As do I. Anything to develop him some way, any way.

I've made jokes about Harry's rank many times. And I will again. It's an easy shorthand for making fun of all the other problems I have with the writing of VOY.

Same here. When mentioning something the VOY writers did, I regularly say: "remember, these are people who didn't even know that an ensign is supposed to make lieutenant. So what do you expect?"

And unlike most of my other remarks, those ones are mean-spirited.

 

[Oddish]

Speaking of which, check out #7...
https://amp.cheezburger.com/2318413...rekkies-bravely-following-the-prime-directive

 

[Lynx]

I think everybody cracks jokes about the hapless character from time to time... me included. Seems to be human nature. Sadly, in light of what the showrunners were likely trying to do by keeping Harry at ensign, I feel like we've all been giving the bullies what they want.



As do I. Anything to develop him some way, any way.



Same here. When mentioning something the VOY writers did, I regularly say: "remember, these are people who didn't even know that an ensign is supposed to make lieutenant. So what do you expect?"

And unlike most of my other remarks, those ones are mean-spirited.

I must admit that I had come up with such comments myself. I remember noticing how many times he ended up in sickbay injured and dying in the Voyager books. And then you all should know that Harry is better treated in the Voyager books than in the series. In the books he's actually doing somthing.

Some of the stories in the books show what he could have been in the series, a computer wizard and master of solving such problems.

I must also state that iIve never really understood that "whipping boy syndrome" in some series where a certain character always is mistreated, fails or getting beaten up.

I remember a Western series which was very popular where I live. It was called "The Macahans" amd was about mountain man Zeb Macahan and his relatives and also had Harris Yulin, ("Marritza in the DS9 episode Duet) as the sleazy villain Deek Peasley and also William Shatner in a minor role.

The series included Zeb's nephew Josh Macahan who was the typical "whipping boy" of the series. he could hardly go out and fetch a bucket of water before messing it up, getting in trouble and being beaten up.

Sometimes O'Brien were dangerously close to become DS9s "whipping boy" but the character (and actor Colm Meaney) was strong enough not to end up in that trap.

 

[at Quark's]

I know. "Poor, dumb Harry Kim" is a very common expression among Trek fans.

To be honest, I never heard that expression (or anything similar in nature), before I saw you bringing it up here on TrekBBS some time ago. I only was familiar with the Harry never getting promoted as some kind of meme that eventually turned into some kind of running gag (not necessarily very funny though), but I never interpreted the spirit of that as being necessarily at the cost of the Harry character. It could just as easily point to Janeway being way too stingy/unfair with her promotions, or the ineptitude / carelessness of the writers. You are the first one I know that seems to take it as an insult / bullying the Harry Kim character. I do have to say you have a point, though.

Then again, I have to admit, I don't really frequent any 'trek' communities beyond TrekBBS (though I do use pages such as Mem Alpha).

 

[Tosk]

To be honest, I never heard that expression (or anything similar in nature), before I saw you bringing it up here on TrekBBS some time ago.

Fun fact. If you search the phrase on the board, only a single user actually ever uses it. I bet you can guess who.

 

[Guy Gardener]

What about "Loser Virgin Harry Kim"?

 

[Tosk]

Nah Harry was a lot of things, but virgin isn't one of them. No argument on the loser part though.

 

[at Quark's]

That'd be pretty hard to believe. Or did he have a platonic friendship with Libby?

Then again, according to TV tropes, in Cheers, in S2 of the series, Norm has sex with Carla's sister on a regular basis, only to become a virgin in later seasons, so I guess it's possible