How Do Social Conservative Star Fans Enjoy Star Trek?

[at Quark's]

Agreed. I don't think Quark can be accused of running a whorehouse.

Unless perhaps those Dabo Girls also perform additional services beyond just running the Dabo tables. And while Quark seems to encourage them to 'seduce' the clients to gamble more, I don't think he goes that far.

EDIT: seems I was not the first to mention the Dabo girls. My bad.

 

[JeffOakland]

Agreed. I don't think Quark can be accused of running a whorehouse.

Unless perhaps those Dabo Girls also perform additional services beyond just running the Dabo tables. And while Quark seems to encourage them to 'seduce' the clients to gamble more, I don't think he goes that far.

EDIT: seems I was not the first to mention the Dabo girls. My bad.

Do AI prostitutes have right of refusal to clients? In order for the holodeck to work, the AI characters need to "think " for themselves. Moriarty escaped from the holodeck and caused some serious problems. Define sentience. Data is sentient. So was Moriarty. Do electric prostitutes dream of ideal clients?

 

[JeffOakland]

There are also numerous references to Federation credits, and Starfleet personnel being paid in them, in TOS.

They kinda swept that lil tidbit under the rug in subsequent series, it seems.

 

[at Quark's]

Define sentience.

We don't have to know (though our own AI is coming closer to that point too); they have to know where the boundary lies between sapience and self consciousness and what is just mere programming. One hopes they'd have found out by the 24th century but the issue seems relatively new to them as well.

Given what I've seen, I don't think Our Heroes would keep AI programmers prisoner they know to have consciousness. Though not everyone in the Star Trek universe -not even in Starfleet- seems to think that way.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

In order for the holodeck to work, the AI characters need to "think " for themselves.

No, they don't. They only need to appear as if they are thinking. And in some cases, not even that.

I'm sure that Quark's holosuites have a lot of sexual programs (such as Vulcan Love Slave). But the simple fact that those programs exist does not make Quark a pimp. Apart from extremely unique instances, like Moriarty or Vic Fontaine, holodeck characters are not sentient, nor are they even intelligent. They are simple computer programs, nothing more.

Holo-characters are no more sentient than an app on your phone.

 

[Tuskin38]

They kinda swept that lil tidbit under the rug in subsequent series, it seems.

Not really.

 

[JeffOakland]

No, they don't. They only need to appear as if they are thinking. And in some cases, not even that.

I'm sure that Quark's holosuites have a lot of sexual programs (such as Vulcan Love Slave). But the simple fact that those programs exist does not make Quark a pimp. Apart from extremely unique instances, like Moriarty or Vic Fontaine, holodeck characters are not sentient, nor are they even intelligent. They are simple computer programs, nothing more.

Holo-characters are no more sentient than an app on your phone.

What's the difference between Data and a computer program?

 

[JeffOakland]

Not really.

No?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

What's the difference between Data and a computer program?

Data is aware of his own existence. He can operate on his own. He can make decisions on his own.

Computer programs only do what they are specifically written to do. Data does what he wants to do (operating under a strict ethical and moral code of course). He has a mind of his own. Computer programs have no mind. They cannot "want".

As for the Dabo girls: AFAIK, they were never required to perform sexual services for clients. As I said, they are employed simply to distract gamblers into losing. Quark did try to put a clause in their contracts so that they'd have to give him oo-mox (which, strictly speaking, is not the same as sex) but that got shot down by Sisko.

 

[JeffOakland]

Data is a machine.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Data is a machine.

No, he isn't. Data is a fully sentient life form with the power to control his own fate. His status has been proven and enshrined in Federation law.

 

[Oddish]

A person writing a holosuite program would have to be careful to ensure that their programs only had the knowledge required for fighting, fornicating, or playing a role in a story. The smart thing to do would be to limit their file size, and render them incapable of learning new things (i.e. "read only").

Problem is, with an EMH, the file size has to be huge, and they have to be able to learn new treatments. So the only defense against them becoming sentient is to use them very sparingly.

 

[Oddish]

Data is a machine.

No, he isn't. Data is a fully sentient life form with the power to control his own fate. His status has been proven and enshrined in Federation law.

Data IS a machine. AND he's a fully sentient lifeform with the power to control his own fate.

 

[at Quark's]

Data IS a machine. AND he's a fully sentient lifeform with the power to control his own fate.

Agreed.

As Picard says: Commander Riker has dramatically demonstrated to this court that Lieutenant Commander Data is a machine. Do we deny that? No. Because it is not relevant. We too are machines, just machines of a different type.

 

[Farscape One]

No problems I think since the issues in Star Trek takes place 300 years or so in the future when most of todays squabbles and conflicts are solved a long time ago.

I don't know how it is with the newer movies or series since I've watched very little of them. I gave up rather quickly on series like Enterprise, Discovery and Picard and never cared for the NuTrek movies. But I have no problems with TOS, TNG, DS9 or VOY.

OK, there have been some minor things, like when Sisko refused to visit Vic Fontaine's holographic club since the scenario in it was 1962, a time when black people were discriminated.

That came out a bit ridiculous because (as Kasidy pointed out) it was made up as it should have been that time, not how it really was. Not to mention that black entertainers were highly appreciated in 1962, like Ray Charles, Chuck Berry, Cubby Checker etc.

it's a bit like if a a crewmember with Polish or Czech origin on the Enterprise should have refused to serve under Chekov "since his coutry invided mine 300 years ago".

Juts for your knowledge, Sisko is one of my absolute favorites in Star Trek so this is not an attack on the character, just pointing out a somewhat weird thing.

In his defense, Sisko had experienced mid-century Anerican racism, in all its vileness. I could see it being a sore spot with him.

I used to find Sisko's reaction to Vic's odd at first, but then I remembered he was the only one in the crew who experienced the racism of that era in "FAR BEYOND THE STARS". (As Oddish pointed out.) Coupled with his established knowledge of his heritage (he collected ancient African art, as we saw in "THE SEARCH, PART I"), his reaction in "BADDA-BING, BADDA-BING" makes sense.

I do like Kasidy's rebuttal, though. That whole scene was really good.

What's the difference between Data and a computer program?

As others have pointed out, Data has wants and he can think for himself. He has done things outside of his programming, which means he can grow. A holodeck program can't do that.

 

[JeffOakland]

I used to find Sisko's reaction to Vic's odd at first, but then I remembered he was the only one in the crew who experienced the racism of that era in "FAR BEYOND THE STARS". (As Oddish pointed out.) Coupled with his established knowledge of his heritage (he collected ancient African art, as we saw in "THE SEARCH, PART I"), his reaction in "BADDA-BING, BADDA-BING" makes sense.

I do like Kasidy's rebuttal, though. That whole scene was really good.




As others have pointed out, Data has wants and he can think for himself. He has done things outside of his programming, which means he can grow. A holodeck program can't do that.

Can't they? Remember Moriarty. Also, it's just a matter of programming.

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

Data is a machine.

Okay, Pulaski

 

[Farscape One]

Can't they? Remember Moriarty. Also, it's just a matter of programming.

Moriarty was able to what he did only because Geordi told the computer to make a character capable of beating Data, and the only way to do that was to give it the ability to go beyond its program.

 

[JeffOakland]

Okay, Pulaski

Go put some pants on. Geesh.

 

[JeffOakland]

Moriarty was able to what he did only because Geordi told the computer to make a character capable of beating Data, and the only way to do that was to give it the ability to go beyond its program.

If you're giving it the ability to go beyond it's program, you're creating a new (and repeatable) program.