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Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

What grade would you give the Marvel Cinematic Universe? (Ever-Changing Question)


  • Total voters
    185
I can't decide where in the MCU I want to head next. I could watch Captain Marvel (which is one of the last individual movies I've yet to see), marathon the existing Avengers movies (since, as mentioned, I've never seen Infinity War and Endgame), or start revisiting full subseries that I've seen in their entirety.

Thoughts/suggestions?

If you are going to see The Marvels this month, then watching Captain Marvel would be the choice to make. I've heard there will be some references to the first film, which as the last time her character was fully explored (as opposed to her Endgame cameo).
 
I'll give you the sibling aspect, but Knowhere and Cosmo aren't good examples of this at all. They're just elements of time passing and the heroes having a life offscreen. Being introduced to them in vol. 3 instead of the special makes absolutely no difference because both productions introduce them to the audience the same way: as unfamiliar elements which have already been around for a significant but unknown amount of time in between films.
Knowhere was in the first movie, not to mention IW.
 
Knowhere was in the first movie, not to mention IW.

Yes, but the Guardians being back there and using it as their HQ ought to have been addressed via dialogue in Vol. 3.

If you are going to see The Marvels this month, then watching Captain Marvel would be the choice to make. I've heard there will be some references to the first film, which as the last time her character was fully explored (as opposed to her Endgame cameo).

I'll watch Captain Marvel at some point, even if it isn't the immediate next thing that I watch.
 
But people are also complaining there aren't enough connections. I don't get it anymore. This is what a shared universe is like.
 
Knowhere was in the first movie, not to mention IW.

And Cosmo was in vol. 1, as well. It's not wrong to say there's a big unexplained change in their presentation, though.

What is wrong is to say that that change is because they failed to properly recap the holiday special when the special itself has the exact same lack of explanation. It's clearly a deliberate choice that the Guardians' lives have changed significantly in between movies.
 
For a good long while, it was possible to jump into the MCU anywhere and not have to be familiar with anything else in order to fully enjoy whatever movie you were watching, and the overall IP was by and large better for it
I agree. It became, well, like, comic books. You feel completely dependent on seeing the previous work for full enjoyment. And if sn installment doesn't interest you then it makes it harder to get in to it.

For example, I watched No Way Home without seeing the previous two and followed it just fine.
 
To me, it felt like the MCU veered off track mid Phase 4 - probably right around NWH.

Basically, the issue post-Endgame was that a lot of the original core Avengers were gone. Tony Stark is dead. Natasha Romanoff is dead. Steve Rogers is either dead, or a frail old man. So the MCU needed a new core avengers lineup. So we basically needed a new Phase 1 - introduce a bunch of new characters and establish them for the next Avengers.

The goal of Phase 4 initially seemed to be to pass the torch/introduce new characters. Shang-Chi was just a straight-up origin story for a new superhero. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier was basically an extended, convoluted way of turning Falcon into the new Cap (even though Endgame settled it in a single scene). Hawkeye seemed constructed to retire Cliff Barton and pass the torch to Kate Bishop. Black Widow, which was clearly just a movie made to satisfy contractual requirements, introduced Yelena, who could function as the "new Widow." So you have just the start of a good team there. Eternals seemed to be kind of a failure, but the intent was clearly to introduce another ensemble team like the GOTG, who could serve as the window to the "cosmic" side of Marvel.

The thing is, Marvel couldn't commit to this. So we got more Dr. Strange, more Thor, and more Ant-Man. In isolation, I don't think any of these movies was a bad idea per se, but they all could have been structured better to either provide a better potential closure point on the characters (ala GOTG 3, or NWH) or to help explicitly pass the torch better (Cassie absolutely could have "grown" into Stature in Quantumania, for example).

I recognize part of the issue is that for various reasons, none of the planned core of the "new Avengers" back in 2019 worked out. Chadwick died of cancer. The Tom Holland Spiderman movies have been caught in some sort of contractual nightmare with Sony which has put further ones in doubt (though we'll possibly get at least one more). And Brie Larsen is apparently so jaded from her experience with toxic Marvel fans that she's considering walking away from the franchise entirely now. But there's so many blocks scattered across the playroom floor right now man. Don't ignore them, build something with them!
 
And Brie Larsen is apparently so jaded from her experience with toxic Marvel fans that she's considering walking away from the franchise entirely now.

I really doubt we see much more of Larsen - she's a good actress, and she's got some interesting work out at the moment and ahead, but if The Marvels continues to track as it does that will be the end of Captain Marvel outside of small cameos I think.
 
Tbh I don't think bw deserved a movie because phases 1-3 failed to make her interesting

However I agree she was subjected to unfair sexism, especially phases 1-2
 
eschaton said:
The thing is, Marvel couldn't commit to this. So we got more Dr. Strange, more Thor, and more Ant-Man.
Going by the way Strange 1 ended and the fact that it was itself an origin story, it seems obvious that they always intended more Strange. ( Despite the fact that Strange 2 failed to follow up on Strange 1's post-credits scene. )
 
That and it was also to give Scarlett Johansson that hefty paycheck that she always deserved but never got as a supporting character in other people's movies.

Part and parcel of the same thing. It's not "just to satisfy contractual requirements" if it's a movie that deserved to happen all along.
 
I think that a Black Widow movie made when they originally wanted to make it would probably have been better then the one they ended up making, but the one we got isn't bad. Honestly, while its writing is a bit weak the only thing in Black Widow that actually really frustrates me is how badly they wasted the character/concept of Taskmaster. I don't care about the gender switch, but making Taskmaster a tech augmented, mute, mind controlled non-character just sucks, something more like the comics could have been a cool sub-boss style villain in a bunch of different MCU projects. They could easily have turned the daughter of the villain character into any number of other d-list Marvel villains, wasting Taskmaster on that character was just a bad call.

As for Phase 4 in general, just talking about the films, I'll always defend Shang-Chi and Multiverse of Madness as really good films that get a weird amount of criticism from people for reasons I'll never understand. Spider-Man NWH has a lot of great stuff and is overall a good movie, but I'll admit I still hate MCU Peter's supporting cast (not counting May or Happy), and they really bring down parts of the film. Wakanda Forever I found to be a mediocre film even ignoring the fact that the lead actress is a detestable moron. The Eternals and Thor 4 are two of the worst MCU films in my opinion, The Eternals specifically might be the technically the worst MCU film (although my most hated will probably remain Ant-Man & The Wasp).

Overall I think Phase 4 of the MCU films was ok, some stinkers but definitely over hated. Bringing in the TV shows would muddy it a bit more, but still not to the level of being a bad phase.
 
FWIW, I think Black Widow was half of a really great movie, and Scarlet Johansson was epically fucked over by the whole thing, even if it turned out as it did largely due to a series of accidents. But by the time the movie was actually un-fucked in terms of getting greenlit, it was early 2019, and it was always going to come out after her character's death, which kind of by nature limited the scope/scale of the movie, since it would have to be a prequel with low-scale enough crises to have escaped mention.

Frankly, I think a much better choice would have been to set the movie around Cliff and Natasha's misadventures in Budapest. They could even use Cliff's grief over losing his best friend as a framing device for the story, with the movie opening and closing on him. You still could have had Yelena - there was no need for their first meetup to be in Hawkeye, so long as Yelena left disliking Clint/blaming Natasha for her death.
 
The Falcon and the Winter Soldier was basically an extended, convoluted way of turning Falcon into the new Cap (even though Endgame settled it in a single scene).

It did not; being a black Captain America was never going be addressed in that simple "passing Sam the shield" moment. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier was the logical, necessary building on the serious issues of why Sam would ever want the role, and how an undeniably divided nation would ever accept him. The Disney+ series was one of the few MCU productions to take the kind of weighty sociopolitical issues actually written for Captain America comics dating back to the late 60s to the 80s, which was more than a man just putting on a costume. Hell, the reaction to Sam--instead of Bucky--being the new Cap was a creative choice mired in open hostility from so-called "Marvel fans", so TFATWS was addressing the real world as much as the fictional one, making it--arguably--the most socially relevant superhero productions ever made. One, short scene could not--and did not address any of that which is essential to the idea of a black man in the role of Captain America.


Black Widow, which was clearly just a movie made to satisfy contractual requirements

Hence the controversy about Black Widow being one of the only top MCU characters without a solo movie up to that point. The MCU/Disney was not interested in pushing a Black Widow movie because to a large degree, they never valued the character.


And Brie Larsen is apparently so jaded from her experience with toxic Marvel fans that she's considering walking away from the franchise entirely now.

I would not blame her if she ditched the role due to the torrential flood of hatred she received for speaking her mind, instead of some sort of PR-babble.
 
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I can't decide where in the MCU I want to head next. I could watch Captain Marvel (which is one of the last individual movies I've yet to see), marathon the existing Avengers movies (since, as mentioned, I've never seen Infinity War and Endgame), or start revisiting full subseries that I've seen in their entirety.

Thoughts/suggestions?
Watch Captain Marvel. It's hella fun.
 
And Brie Larsen is apparently so jaded from her experience with toxic Marvel fans that she's considering walking away from the franchise entirely now.
If there was widespread enthusiasm for the character/actor pairing, and similar clamor for Larsen to stick around as Carol, I don't believe for a moment that she'd let online dipsh*ts dissuade her. If she and the character quietly recede from the picture, it will most likely be a result of the character just not plain catching on, both in front of and behind the scenes.

Hell, the reaction to Sam--instead of Bucky--being the new Cap was a creative choice mired in open hostility from so-called "Marvel fans"
Citation needed.
 
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