Garrett Wang

[at Quark's]

^Good for him and for the Federation, but that's not an officially recognized Bridge Officer Test result, so the rank of Commander cannot be conferred upon Data.

(Of course I'm just being facetious there, but I've met people in real life who really had such a bureaucratic mindset. Perhaps they also exist in Starfleet brass in the 24th century.)

But realistically, I think Data would need to submit to no Bridge Officer test at all, given his track record and experiences. He's more than proved he's capable in the past.

Except Data is the third in command of the flagship, and has commanded both the Enterprise and the Sutherland*. Remember that in "Redemption", he asked why he had not been selected to command a ship. If he was not a bridge officer, the answer would be obvious.

Perhaps one of the most telling differences between TNG and VOY:

TNG: Data protests his not being appointed a command. Picard reconsiders. Data does his duty well, and more than that. Data is justified.
VOY: Harry protests not being given more responsibility. Janeway doubts but lets him go. Kim does his duty reasonably well. Still, Janeway is justified.

 

[Oddish]

^Good for him and for the Federation, but that's not an officially recognized Bridge Officer Test result, so the rank of Commander cannot be conferred upon Data.

My point is, it seems unlikely that a person who had not passed his bridge officer test would be given command of the Sutherland in the first place.

Of course I'm just being facetious there, but I've met people in real life who really had such a bureaucratic mindset. Perhaps they also exist in Starfleet brass in the 24th century.)

Oh, you can bet they do. In the Star Trek IV novelization, McCoy said once that the bureaucratic mentality is the only constant in the universe. Don't remember if he said it in the actual movie.

EDIT: Yup, he did.

VOY: Harry protests not being given more responsibility. Janeway doubts but lets him go. Kim does his duty reasonably well. Still, Janeway is justified.

Harry actually struggled in his first time in command, but managed to pull himself together at the end. And at the end, it's established that by his own admission, Harry's not ready for the Big Chair. But there are five, count 'em FIVE promotions between ensign and captain. He's repeatedly shown himself ready for the first.

While not the best opportunity in the series ("Night" holds that distinction), the writers of "Nightingale" could have had Harry finally get that hollow pip. Just show a very subdued Harry say in a debriefing scene that he thought he was ready for command... but the reality proved very different from his expectations. Janeway sagely tells him that every assignment will be like that... why should command be otherwise? And no, he's not ready for her job just yet, he is ready for the next step on his journey.

In other words, she shows confidence in him when he is questioning his confidence in himself. And that way, at the end, Lieutenant Harry Kim can say and mean: "I'm not a captain... not yet."

 

[Lynx]

Sorry to hear that.

I find it everywhere.

Then you are lucky or live somewhere where people and media aren't so pessimistic.

Pretty much been part of my SF experience since I read Heinlein.

I grew up with movies and TV series which had at least a core of optimism in it. Not only SF series and movies but other series and movies as well.

Unfortunately I don't find anything of it today which is a reason why I don't watch any series now. I might go for SNW if I findsome streaming servicewhere I don't have to pay a huge sum for a service which contents 90% crap programs. Hopefully they won't cancel the series after two seasons or so too. That happened to me the one and only time when I tried a streaming service.

I'd suggest a used book site. You can get it for $7 or so.

No problem with the price as such, it was more about a lot of unexpected but necessary expenses which postponed buying the book.

As for Una McCormac, my interest for Garak made me buy and read The Crimson Shadow and The Never Ending Sacrifice which were great books. Not nly were they good reads but they gave me back my fate in good Star trek books as well.

I do as well. Note that I said LESS deserving. If Tom deserved to get his hollow pip back for 1-1/2 years of "exemplary" work, didn't Harry deserve his, given that he put in had been doing comparably good work for over four times that long?

I agree with that!

 

[fireproof78]

Then you are lucky or live somewhere where people and media aren't so pessimistic.

No.

I deal with pessimism daily. I work with mental health struggles and crises and safety planning weekly. I hear news and negativity.

And I work my rear end off to improve the world, to find the good, and be the good I wish was there. "The Human Adventure is just beginning" is what drives me forward, not wishing for a disconnect from reality. Humanity is as Trek portrayed: capable of great good and great evil. What triumphs is what we feed.

 

[Lynx]

No.

I deal with pessimism daily. I work with mental health struggles and crises and safety planning weekly. I hear news and negativity.

And I work my rear end off to improve the world, to find the good, and be the good I wish was there. "The Human Adventure is just beginning" is what drives me forward, not wishing for a disconnect from reality. Humanity is as Trek portrayed: capable of great good and great evil. What triumphs is what we feed.

In that case you're doing a great job and I admire you for that.

 

[fireproof78]

In that case you're doing a great job and I admire you for that.

Thank you.

Wishing much positivity to you.

 

[Phaser Two]

there are five, count 'em FIVE promotions between ensign and captain

I "counted 'em." There are four.

 

[Tosk]

I "counted 'em." There are four.

There are four ranks between them, but it would take five promotions to get from Ensign to Captain.

 

[Phaser Two]

There are four ranks between them, but it would take five promotions to get from Ensign to Captain.

I know, trust me. I believe the poster meant that there were four promotions that would still leave Harry less than a captain. So, counting them as ordered, there are four promotions between the ranks of ensign and captain.

 

[DonIago]

Oh no, not another argument over whether there's four or five...

 

[Farscape One]

1. Ensign to Lt. j.g.
2. Lt. j.g. to full Lt.
3. Lt. to Lt. Commander
4. Lt. Commander to Commander
5. Commander to Captain

That's five promotions.

 

[Oddish]

Oh no, not another argument over whether there's four or five...

THERE... ARE... FIVE... PROMOTIONS!!!

[Edited to remove what Farscape just added]

Now granted, grades can be skipped. For instance, Tom Paris (a LTJG) gets skipped up to LCDR in the non-canon "Homecoming". Given that Paris had received a demotion and prison sentence but still got bumped up two grades, Harry's promotion to lieutenant wasprobably a two-grade boost as well, reprimand or no. Also, Janeway got a multi-level promotion, from CAPT to VADM (in canon). Depending on whether Starfleet still uses the Commodore rank or splits the RADM rank, that's either two grades or three.

 

[Phaser Two]

On edit and second thought, not worth it.

 

[at Quark's]

So, in which (alternate reality/future )episodes do we actually see Harry Kim with a rank higher than Ensign? From the top of my head, I can only recall Endgame and Non Sequitur but haven't there been more?

Just occurred to me that if they had really wanted to taunt us with not giving Harry a promotion, they would have shown such a scene at the beginning of Course: Oblivion (possibly instead of the Paris & Torres marriage scene).

 

[Farscape One]

So, in which (alternate reality/future )episodes do we actually see Harry Kim with a rank higher than Ensign? From the top of my head, I can only recall Endgame and Non Sequitur but haven't there been more?

Just occurred to me that if they had really wanted to taunt us with not giving Harry a promotion, they would have shown such a scene at the beginning of Course: Oblivion (possibly instead of the Paris & Torres marriage scene).

"ENDGAME" and "BEFORE AND AFTER" were the only times where we actually saw him higher than Ensign. (I also believe evil Janeway called evil Kim 'lieutenant' in "LIVING WITNESS", but I am not %100 certain. They didn't have pips on their collars there.)

"NON SEQUITUR", if 'all went well' in that meeting, Lt. Laska said he'd walk out that room a Lt., j.g. So it didn't actually happen.

In "TIMELESS", we can assume he was promoted because he said he signed onto deep space exploration ships to find Voyager. But we never saw him with any higher rank.

 

[at Quark's]

^Ah, right, I hadn't thought of Before and After and you're right we don't actually get to see it in Non Sequitur (or Timeless for that matter).

 

[Oddish]

Canonically, in AU's: Endgame and Before and After. In Endgame, the ship's voyage lasted another 16 years, and with Tuvok's mental condition and Chakotay incapacitated by the loss of Seven, lower ranking officers probably had to step up. Since Voyager was in touch with Starfleet by then, he probably got promoted during the trip home.

In Before and After, Chakotay was captain, and field promotion was probably part and parcel of his command style. Harry presumably received two rank-ups in the six years between the present and Kes's morilogium.

If the Non Sequitur AU had proceeded uncontaminated, it's a safe bet Harry would have ranked up there. Given that he was the "go-to" guy for helping Voyager's crew build new things, he probably excelled with the SCE, and had his new runabout all ready for perusal and was able to answer any questions. Fifteen minutes, and he leaves ensignhood behind, two years ahead of schedule.

And, while Timeless never states it, it seems unlikely that an officer who was suggested as a match for an admiral's daughter would be an eternal ensign.

As to non-canon sources, in ST Online, it's 2410 and Harry's a captain. We don't know how fast he ranked up, though.

In Homecoming, Harry and Voyager's other ensigns are promoted to lieutenant. Given that Tom and Janeway both got multi-grade promotion, it's a safe bet he did too. So, figure he was a full LT. This is most likely what will have happened if Harry ever receives a canonical fate, unless he winds up as a "Lower Decks" character.

And, in "The Autobiography of Kathryn Janeway", the admiral reveals that her last act in command was to bump him up to lieutenant, which was as high as she had the authority to promote him. However, he ranked up rapidly afterward, and was a captain by 2395.

 

[Farscape One]

Canonically, in AU's: Endgame and Before and After. In Endgame, the ship's voyage lasted another 16 years, and with Tuvok's mental condition and Chakotay incapacitated by the loss of Seven, lower ranking officers probably had to step up. Since Voyager was in touch with Starfleet by then, he probably got promoted during the trip home.

In Before and After, Chakotay was captain, and field promotion was probably part and parcel of his command style. Harry presumably received two rank-ups in the six years between the present and Kes's morilogium.

If the Non Sequitur AU had proceeded uncontaminated, it's a safe bet Harry would have ranked up there. Given that he was the "go-to" guy for helping Voyager's crew build new things, he probably excelled with the SCE, and had his new runabout all ready for perusal and was able to answer any questions. Fifteen minutes, and he leaves ensignhood behind, two years ahead of schedule.

And, while Timeless never states it, it seems unlikely that an officer who was suggested as a match for an admiral's daughter would be an eternal ensign.

As to non-canon sources, in ST Online, it's 2410 and Harry's a captain. We don't know how fast he ranked up, though.

In Homecoming, Harry and Voyager's other ensigns are promoted to lieutenant. Given that Tom and Janeway both got multi-grade promotion, it's a safe bet he did too. So, figure he was a full LT. This is most likely what will have happened if Harry ever receives a canonical fate, unless he winds up as a "Lower Decks" character.

And, in "The Autobiography of Kathryn Janeway", the admiral reveals that her last act in command was to bump him up to lieutenant, which was as high as she had the authority to promote him. However, he ranked up rapidly afterward, and was a captain by 2395.

Regarding "BEFORE AND AFTER"... that's one area where Chakotay was definitely better at than Janeway: promotions.

Tuvok was a full Commander.
Tom was a Lt. Cmdr.
Harry was a full Lt.

I do wonder if Harry became Chief Engineer in that timeline, since it was mentioned Carey was killed, too. We have seen Harry do a lot of work in engineering, so he has the skill set.

I wonder who would have replaced Tuvok as Security Chief... unless he pulled double duty as XO, too. (Seems a very Vulcan thing to do... both Spock and T'Pol were XO and Science Officer.)

 

[Oddish]

I do wonder if Harry became Chief Engineer in that timeline, since it was mentioned Carey was killed, too. We have seen Harry do a lot of work in engineering, so he has the skill set.

Very possible. B'Elanna would have been a tragic loss, arguably worse than Janeway because no one on the ship had her unique combination of knowledge and creativity. But, Harry was a good enough engineer that, in another reality, he made lieutenant in one-quarter the "normal" time.

I wonder who would have replaced Tuvok as Security Chief... unless he pulled double duty as XO, too. (Seems a very Vulcan thing to do... both Spock and T'Pol were XO and Science Officer.)

Lt. Ayala is the likeliest candidate. He was one of Chakotay's inner circle, a prominent member of the bridge crew, and I think the only Maquis aside from B'Elanna to receive lieutenant rank. Also, maybe Tuvok's advancement to first officer created an opening on the security detail, allowing Neelix to rock that gold uniform.

Regarding "BEFORE AND AFTER"... that's one area where Chakotay was definitely better at than Janeway: promotions.

Yup. I remember once putting up a post naming several things Chakotay did better as captain... the response was "I get it, you hate women". Some people are so full of crap, they'd make a septic tank jealous.

 

[Farscape One]

Very possible. B'Elanna would have been a tragic loss, arguably worse than Janeway because no one on the ship had her unique combination of knowledge and creativity. But, Harry was a good enough engineer that, in another reality, he made lieutenant in one-quarter the "normal" time.



Lt. Ayala is the likeliest candidate. He was one of Chakotay's inner circle, a prominent member of the bridge crew, and I think the only Maquis aside from B'Elanna to receive lieutenant rank. Also, maybe Tuvok's advancement to first officer created an opening on the security detail, allowing Neelix to rock that gold uniform.



Yup. I remember once putting up a post naming several things Chakotay did better as captain... the response was "I get it, you hate women". Some people are so full of crap, they'd make a septic tank jealous.

Ayala is a good choice, and I think he was the only other ex-Maquis to be a Lt.