NCC -1701 (TOS).....
- Thread starter Dar70
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This is too far. It’s not your place to judge other people’s fandom.
This whole conversation about “character” is borderline ludicrous.
Let’s see if we can pull this thread out of its tailspin.
Thanks
Finally wading into this quagmire...
A star ship - like a real world ship - can feel like a home, a friend. This would be an irrational; and very human thing and therefore perfectly natural to us.
Do you never get attached to a reliable old car? The old house you grew up in?
The Enterprise, much like it's several real world predecessors (CVN-65, CV-6, several steam and/or sail powered and so on...) has a 'character' all her own. She may not officially speak or act on her own but, she often seems to be the protector, or needs to be protected. She is often the focus of some of the characters. Real ships are often treated in the same basic way.
Read some of Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey-Maturin stories and you'll often get that same feeling from "Lucky Jack Aubrey" when it comes to a few of the ships he commands. Not all of them though, some seem to be hard luck cases.
The Enterprise - from a certain point of view (thank you Obi-wan) - is a character in her own way. That's what helped make her end in Star Trek III so painful and poignant.
A star ship - like a real world ship - can feel like a home, a friend. This would be an irrational; and very human thing and therefore perfectly natural to us.
Do you never get attached to a reliable old car? The old house you grew up in?
The Enterprise, much like it's several real world predecessors (CVN-65, CV-6, several steam and/or sail powered and so on...) has a 'character' all her own. She may not officially speak or act on her own but, she often seems to be the protector, or needs to be protected. She is often the focus of some of the characters. Real ships are often treated in the same basic way.
Read some of Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey-Maturin stories and you'll often get that same feeling from "Lucky Jack Aubrey" when it comes to a few of the ships he commands. Not all of them though, some seem to be hard luck cases.
The Enterprise - from a certain point of view (thank you Obi-wan) - is a character in her own way. That's what helped make her end in Star Trek III so painful and poignant.
I’m sorry, I thought that it was established that we don’t have to add the proviso ‘this is my opinion’ to every post we make here.
But just to be clear, I was speaking tongue-in-cheek. I apologize if the sarcasm didn’t come through clearly.
Thank you for that.
This whole conversation is so surreal, it’s hard to know what’s what.
I agree with everything here, except the bolded part. Everyone has things about science fiction that they love that aren't the same reasons as other people.
I just saw that you said this as a joke. My apologies.
No problem. As I said, the sarcasm probably didn’t translate well.
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but the remastered TOS gave us some great new angles of the Enterprise.
I always appreciated that.
I always appreciated that.
The internet is terrible when it comes to that, unfortunately.
Exactly.
Though, I'm good with the talking painting. Unless substances are involved. Otherwise it's too much like Pagemaster.
No.
Even if I did, that's different than treating them as a character I can interact with. There is a distinction there.
"Just because you are a character doesn't mean you have character!" To quote a line from Pulp Fiction. The TFF Enterprise is a character. The TMP Enterprise has character.
The SNW Enterprise is trying to please too many masters. Mashing the Disco Look with the TOS Look is hard. And looking like it comes between the NX-01 and TMP version. Talk about a balancing act. It's the Enterprise made to appeal to the committee.
Regardless, all versions of the 1701 show the Constitution Class when it was young. In the Kelvin Timeline, it looks like it was going through its hip-hop phase with the oversized nacelles.
The 1701-G shows the Constitution Class in middle age. It looks like it's put on some pounds.
The SNW Enterprise is trying to please too many masters. Mashing the Disco Look with the TOS Look is hard. And looking like it comes between the NX-01 and TMP version. Talk about a balancing act. It's the Enterprise made to appeal to the committee.
Regardless, all versions of the 1701 show the Constitution Class when it was young. In the Kelvin Timeline, it looks like it was going through its hip-hop phase with the oversized nacelles.
The 1701-G shows the Constitution Class in middle age. It looks like it's put on some pounds.
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Sad but true.
If the Enterprise is a character, then she's been recast.
As far as recasts go, it isn't bad. Especially a recasting by committee. It's a closer resemblance than with the Saavik recasting or the Maddox recasting.
And like all actors that step into an iconic role that's been defined by a predecessor, the performance exists in the shadow of that predecessor and will always be compared to the original.
Until it can be accepted as valid in its own right as performances should be.
I suppose it comes down to how narrow your definition of a character is. @Dukhat mentioned the TARDIS, which is definitely a character. The TARDIS has its own idiosyncrasies and whims and is understood to be sentient on some level that's beyond our comprehension. It's not just an environment or a vessel. It's a living thing.
I think what @Lord Garth said about the differences between the TMP Enterprise and TFF Enterprise rings true. Having character vs. being a character.
To me, things like the Enterprise, the DeLorean or the Millennium Falcon are characters because I care about them, sometimes equally to the people that are on screen. In BttF 3 I had a very visceral reaction to the time machine being trashed at the end, similarly the Enterprise in TSfS.
I think that Mr @Fireproof is just something of an unsentimental fellow. That's not meant as a pejorative by the way. @Fireproof You just don't see something that many of us do see. Ultimately, your truth is yours and equally as valid.
The Enterprise is a character, though.
I think what @Lord Garth said about the differences between the TMP Enterprise and TFF Enterprise rings true. Having character vs. being a character.
To me, things like the Enterprise, the DeLorean or the Millennium Falcon are characters because I care about them, sometimes equally to the people that are on screen. In BttF 3 I had a very visceral reaction to the time machine being trashed at the end, similarly the Enterprise in TSfS.
I think that Mr @Fireproof is just something of an unsentimental fellow. That's not meant as a pejorative by the way. @Fireproof You just don't see something that many of us do see. Ultimately, your truth is yours and equally as valid.
The Enterprise is a character, though.
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My unfiltered opinion of all the Enterprises:
---------- TOS & EARLIER ----------
NX-01: Taking the Akira from First Contact and putting some TOS stuff on it doesn't make it a "Pre-TOS" ship, IMO. I didn't buy it at the time, and I still don't really buy it. But not the end of the world.
NCC-1701 (DSC/SNW): Like I said, it looks like it was designed by committee. It gets the job done, and that's about it.
NCC-1701 (TOS): It's not my favorite but it is the one I associate with the TOS Era, and it does look good from all angles.
NCC-1701 Refit / NCC-1701-A: This one actually is my favorite. I consider it to be the definitive version of The Enterprise. Especially in TMP.
---------- KELVIN TIMELINE ----------
NCC-1701 (Kelvin): Looks good from the top and front, not so much from the profile view, and the back only "gets the job done".
NCC-1701-A (Kelvin): I actually think what we saw looked like an improvement over the previous Kelvin Enterprise.
---------- LOST ERA ----------
NCC-1701-B: What can I say? It's the Excelsior with some modifications that make it look worse.
NCC-1701-C: Fine for what it is, but I wish they could've used Andrew Probert's version.
---------- TNG & LATER ----------
NCC-1701-D: It's grown on me over time, inside and out. It looks good from some angles, less so in others. Unlike the 1701, which looks good from ALL angles. If we were to compare the Enterprise-D to cars, I'd say it's like the 1986 Ford Taurus of Federation Starships. If you remember those, you know what I'm talking about.
NCC-1701-E: Loved it when First Contact came out. I've liked it less as time has gone on. The underbelly is ugly. The profile view and front view are okay. The top view looks the best. I still like the interior, but I think the Enterprise-G and the Discovery both do a better job of pulling off the type of feeling the Enterprise-E was going for.
NCC-1701-F: Looks weird, looks bloated. It's a placeholder.
NCC-1701-G: The back is over-designed but I still like the ship overall. Though, as much as I like it, I think the exterior would've made for a better Enterprise-B. From the outside, this ship looks like it should be after Kirk's era, not after Picard's. The interior, OTOH, looks like what I'd think a Post-Nemesis ship would look like.
NCC-1701-J: It's the best pizza-cutter I've ever seen!
.
.
.
So, there we are. If you run through the list, I'm sure everyone can find something to disagree with me about.
---------- TOS & EARLIER ----------
NX-01: Taking the Akira from First Contact and putting some TOS stuff on it doesn't make it a "Pre-TOS" ship, IMO. I didn't buy it at the time, and I still don't really buy it. But not the end of the world.
NCC-1701 (DSC/SNW): Like I said, it looks like it was designed by committee. It gets the job done, and that's about it.
NCC-1701 (TOS): It's not my favorite but it is the one I associate with the TOS Era, and it does look good from all angles.
NCC-1701 Refit / NCC-1701-A: This one actually is my favorite. I consider it to be the definitive version of The Enterprise. Especially in TMP.
---------- KELVIN TIMELINE ----------
NCC-1701 (Kelvin): Looks good from the top and front, not so much from the profile view, and the back only "gets the job done".
NCC-1701-A (Kelvin): I actually think what we saw looked like an improvement over the previous Kelvin Enterprise.
---------- LOST ERA ----------
NCC-1701-B: What can I say? It's the Excelsior with some modifications that make it look worse.
NCC-1701-C: Fine for what it is, but I wish they could've used Andrew Probert's version.
---------- TNG & LATER ----------
NCC-1701-D: It's grown on me over time, inside and out. It looks good from some angles, less so in others. Unlike the 1701, which looks good from ALL angles. If we were to compare the Enterprise-D to cars, I'd say it's like the 1986 Ford Taurus of Federation Starships. If you remember those, you know what I'm talking about.
NCC-1701-E: Loved it when First Contact came out. I've liked it less as time has gone on. The underbelly is ugly. The profile view and front view are okay. The top view looks the best. I still like the interior, but I think the Enterprise-G and the Discovery both do a better job of pulling off the type of feeling the Enterprise-E was going for.
NCC-1701-F: Looks weird, looks bloated. It's a placeholder.
NCC-1701-G: The back is over-designed but I still like the ship overall. Though, as much as I like it, I think the exterior would've made for a better Enterprise-B. From the outside, this ship looks like it should be after Kirk's era, not after Picard's. The interior, OTOH, looks like what I'd think a Post-Nemesis ship would look like.
NCC-1701-J: It's the best pizza-cutter I've ever seen!
.
.
.
So, there we are. If you run through the list, I'm sure everyone can find something to disagree with me about.
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I agree. The TOS E is a classic Greek temple to me.
If I were to go back in time with models of other ships and hand them over to Matt Jeffries and Gene...Ent-D would have been a liner, the Refit used by Commodore Wesley as a threat in ULTIMATE COMPUTER...etc.
Gene may have thought the office complex/Regula looked Klingon back then.
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That's the responsibility of the NX-01 and by the opinion of a great many posters here, it didn't do it's job.
You can't come along 30+ years later and make the first Enterprise look like a Star Destroyer (as an example) and then say "You know, the next ship in line just really didn't follow the lineage. It's just kind of an odd duck."
Really they should have looked at a Civil War era ship and the U.S.S. Nimitz and said "They should have as much in common as that." (I HATE starship "evolution".)
