NCC -1701 (TOS).....

[Dar70]

Does it though? It can certainly be argued that the SNW Enterprise fits in alot better.



Honesty? It sticks out like a sore thumb.



There are a great many who would argure that it did. Stuff just didn't fit inside the smaller scale. A scale that was never all that definitive. Bumping her up to 442m solved most of those issues.



not really.



I'd say they did.

I don't think the new scale and larger interiors work better than the old ones in any way. Like most tv productions exteriors and interiors never really match. But the productions of these newer shows went even further and threw a large wrench in the works with the creation of huge turbolift interiors with large amounts of empty space as far as the eye can see.......I'm still trying to reconcile that one in my mind. I came up with a couple of silly ideas.....

So no they did not resolve any issues just created a huge one with the turbo lifts. I have to say that is probably the weirdest decision to come out of these shows thus far. Worse then the deck screwup in Trek V....lol

 

[Citiprime]

For all the "Well Doctor Who or Star Wars do X" Star Trek has never done X. It has always done the update to the ship in the name of keeping it realistic and approachable for the entire audience. Making it look believable as a space vehicle as understood by the audience of the time.

From 1966 to 2018 the TOS Enterprise was the iteration that every version of Star Trek accepted as the one that existed during the Pike/Kirk era of the ship's existence. There were refits and updates to it when they got to the movies, the newer shows introduced new stuff, but never did any of the shows feel the need to alter the franchise's past in this regard.

Even when CBS did TOS-Remastered, where they updated the effects, they could of easily said: "You know what, let's really rethink this from the ground up. Let's go George Lucas on this and bring the effects up to what people would expect for 2006." They didn't do that. They just built around the version that everyone knows.

It's not that it looks dated. It feels completely out of step with TNG and DS9. It feels...like a stage.

The TOS Enterprise "fits" with TNG and DS9 since both shows acknowledged within their own canon that it existed as part of the setting's past. Also, if we're going with which one matches the established lore of the franchise more, it's not the DSC/SNW version (e.g., Where were all the D.O.T.s during TNG's "Disaster" or any of the other episodes of TNG or DS9 where droids would have come in handy during a dangerous situation?)

Does it though? It can certainly be argued that the SNW Enterprise fits in alot better.

Within this context, what does it mean for the Discoprise to "fit" in a lot better?

If we're going to play this game, and start from a point where the argument is that we need to change this visual aspect of a story that's been a near constant for 5 decades, then everything is on the table. How can the Discoprise fit better when we're going to say everything is open to change? If that's so, then it can't fit "better" because there's no guarantee that any of it looks the same way within this vision.

For example, how do we know the NX-01 looks the same within SNW's past? Or that the Discoprise will turn into the TMP refit version of the Enterprise?

 

[Tuskin38]

how do we know the NX-01 looks the same within SNW's past?

Because there’s a picture of it on the ready room wall in both seasons.

https://x.com/gaghyogi49/status/1545800445079207936?s=46&t=GJ4lIGndtLwuph_LJO2AJw
https://x.com/gaghyogi49/status/1672688543062192128?s=46&t=GJ4lIGndtLwuph_LJO2AJw
https://x.com/gaghyogi49/status/1672688543062192128?s=46&t=GJ4lIGndtLwuph_LJO2AJw

https://x.com/timothypeel1/status/1674101253217845274?s=46&t=GJ4lIGndtLwuph_LJO2AJw

 

[Tallguy]

none of the elements or detailing is interchangeable

Regarding both the Police Box and the Enterprise: There are 1:1 elements between TOS, TMP, and SNW. And obviously there are 1:1 elements between different versions of a blue box.

It amazes me how many analogs there are between elements from TOS to TMP. They knew what they were doing.

How so? It was a ship of the past so of course it would have looked a bit dated compared to DS9.

If you put the TMP ship (or the Excelsior?) into DS9 how dated do they look?

This is the Gorn all over again. Does the 1964 MODEL need to be updated for modern television / film? Almost certainly. Can it be done with far more fidelity to the design than was done on SNW? You betcha. There are probably several examples on these boards. Some were done before JJ some have been done after SNW. There is nothing about Jefferies that is so dated that it hasn't been picked up by SNW and everyone is fine with it.

Does a flattened BC deck look more "modern" in SNW than the shape that the TMP ship inherited from TOS? The aft ends of the SNW warp nacelles are pretty faithful recreations of Where No Man Has Gone Before. Are those not too dated for modern TV? The inboard nacelle details are a little closer to the FJ Tech Manual. SO updated. (Although they have a bunch of nurnies that would make the 1977 ILM crew blush.)

My gold standard is the hand props on SNW and even Disco: The phasers, tricorders, and communicators. (Forget Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. THOSE are the trinity of Star Trek!) I'll add in the captain's chair. You could drop all of those into TOS and none of them would look out of place. They would just look like the show got LOTS more money.

Almost every update (ESPECIALLY the surfacing) makes it an uglier ship. And nearly none of it makes it look more modern. It looks more modern simply because it's a CG model being "filmed" with 2020's tech. If you built an 11 foot model of the SNW ship out of wood and plastic and filmed it with 1966 cameras it would not look more modern. Unless you think "busier" means "modern" in which case the 1979 Battlestar Galactica is the most modern space ship there is.

To the opposite sides of the debate: YES the 1964 model could use some updates for modern filming. NO it's not a retro abomination that would be laughed off the screen by a contemporary audience as evidenced by the fact that they're not laughing at the SNW or TMP ships.

 

[Shawnster]

To you. Not to me. It stands out as a model to me.

Model? As opposed to what?

And which particular object do you refer to? The TOS shooting model? I've honestly gotten lost in the discussion.

 

[Dar70]

Regarding both the Police Box and the Enterprise: There are 1:1 elements between TOS, TMP, and SNW. And obviously there are 1:1 elements between different versions of a blue box.

It amazes me how many analogs there are between elements from TOS to TMP. They knew what they were doing.


If you put the TMP ship (or the Excelsior?) into DS9 how dated do they look?

This is the Gorn all over again. Does the 1964 MODEL need to be updated for modern television / film? Almost certainly. Can it be done with far more fidelity to the design than was done on SNW? You betcha. There are probably several examples on these boards. Some were done before JJ some have been done after SNW. There is nothing about Jefferies that is so dated that it hasn't been picked up by SNW and everyone is fine with it.

Does a flattened BC deck look more "modern" in SNW than the shape that the TMP ship inherited from TOS? The aft ends of the SNW warp nacelles are pretty faithful recreations of Where No Man Has Gone Before. Are those not too dated for modern TV? The inboard nacelle details are a little closer to the FJ Tech Manual. SO updated. (Although they have a bunch of nurnies that would make the 1977 ILM crew blush.)

My gold standard is the hand props on SNW and even Disco: The phasers, tricorders, and communicators. (Forget Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. THOSE are the trinity of Star Trek!) I'll add in the captain's chair. You could drop all of those into TOS and none of them would look out of place. They would just look like the show got LOTS more money.

Almost every update (ESPECIALLY the surfacing) makes it an uglier ship. And nearly none of it makes it look more modern. It looks more modern simply because it's a CG model being "filmed" with 2020's tech. If you built an 11 foot model of the SNW ship out of wood and plastic and filmed it with 1966 cameras it would not look more modern. Unless you think "busier" means "modern" in which case the 1979 Battlestar Galactica is the most modern space ship there is.

To the opposite sides of the debate: YES the 1964 model could use some updates for modern filming. NO it's not a retro abomination that would be laughed off the screen by a contemporary audience as evidenced by the fact that they're not laughing at the SNW or TMP ships.

Exactly. Someone here gets it....

 

[Shawnster]

Does a flattened BC deck look more "modern" in SNW than the shape that the TMP ship inherited from TOS?

What flattened BC deck? To what do you refer?

 

[Tallguy]

Exactly. Someone here gets it....

What flattened BC deck? To what do you refer?

On the TOS / TMP ship there is the bridge dome, then a section that houses (presumably) two more decks, then the saucer proper.

On SNW there is a bubble that is above the bridge then a second structure that almost blends in with the rest of the saucer. On SNW this is where the bridge is (because you can see it through the window).

 

[1001001]

I've honestly gotten lost in the discussion.

You’re not the only one.



I should have moved this to Trek Tech, but by the time I got here it was going along at a good clip. I’ll leave it here so people can ponder these very important issues.

 

[UssGlenn]

Regarding both the Police Box and the Enterprise: There are 1:1 elements between TOS, TMP, and SNW. And obviously there are 1:1 elements between different versions of a blue box.

It amazes me how many analogs there are between elements from TOS to TMP. They knew what they were doing.

When I say interchangeable I mean you can physically take a piece off one and put it on the other and it will be physically identical. Can't do that on the Tardis, not only because of the size difference, but also because the ratios of all the rectangles are slightly different. Same with TOS, TMP, and SNW, there are analogous parts but you can't put a piece on the other ship without it looking different. You can on the Pilot vs series ship, because it's the same physical model underneath the modifications they made for the series.

 

[fireproof78]

But hundreds of people that viewed that Discovery clip would agree with me.

So what? I get so tired of this majority rules crap.

You articulate your opinion well. Please don't appeal to the majority to say that you disagree with me.

I think they could have did a more logical update.

This isn't logic though. This is art. Star Trek has always decided that ships need updating at some level. It just went forward, until ENTERPRISE and then it went backwards and made ships that looked more like TNG or TMP style than TOS style. That was the second sign, after TMP, that TOS is just it's own distinct thing. Nothing logical about it.

From 1966 to 2018 the TOS Enterprise was the iteration that every version of Star Trek accepted as the one that existed during the Pike/Kirk era of the ship's existence. There were refits and updates to it when they got to the movies, the newer shows introduced new stuff, but never did any of the shows feel the need to alter the franchise's past in this regard.

So because it always was means it always fits?

I love this assumption that it always was this way therefore you cannot change it. I am speaking my personal reaction to seeing it on screen with other items. Hell, it looks odd just comparing from TOS to TMP.

Model? As opposed to what?

Feeling like a real ship. Something that actually functions in the world. TOS works on a certain level, but when you put it in the other shows it feels far more fake. It's not easy to describe. It's something that just sticks out to me when I watch it.

Now, again, that doesn't make TOS bad. It's just something that hangs together as itself, not as a piece of history in a larger continuity. It starts to look more fake.

In my opinion. Which is why I prefer TOS as just its own thing, rather than this historic thing.

 

[Tallguy]

When I say interchangeable I mean you can physically take a piece off one and put it on the other and it will be physically identical. Can't do that on the Tardis, not only because of the size difference, but also because the ratios of all the rectangles are slightly different. Same with TOS, TMP, and SNW, there are analogous parts but you can't put a piece on the other ship without it looking different. You can on the Pilot vs series ship, because it's the same physical model underneath the modifications they made for the series.

If you're saying things that are not the exact same thing are not the exact same thing I'm probably going to have to agree with you?

You couldn't exchange parts from the 3 foot TOS model to the 11 foot or to the Trials and Tribilations model. Or probably from David Tennant's police box to Matt Smith's.

Different things are, in fact, different things.

 

[Citiprime]

If you put the TMP ship (or the Excelsior?) into DS9 how dated do they look?

Lakota versus Defiant didn't look bad at all.

Almost every update (ESPECIALLY the surfacing) makes it an uglier ship. And nearly none of it makes it look more modern. It looks more modern simply because it's a CG model being "filmed" with 2020's tech. If you built an 11 foot model of the SNW ship out of wood and plastic and filmed it with 1966 cameras it would not look more modern. Unless you think "busier" means "modern" in which case the 1979 Battlestar Galactica is the most modern space ship there is.

To the opposite sides of the debate: YES the 1964 model could use some updates for modern filming. NO it's not a retro abomination that would be laughed off the screen by a contemporary audience as evidenced by the fact that they're not laughing at the SNW or TMP ships.

I agree totally. 100%.

Look, if they used the original Jefferies design verbatim and really detailed the hell out of it and lit it properly, and revealed it in a cool way and did it RIGHT, nobody would have said the Jefferies design was outdated or didn't "fit." They would be saying what an amazing moment and what a great design.

 

[fireproof78]

Look, if they used the original Jefferies design verbatim and really detailed the hell out of it and lit it properly, and revealed it in a cool way and did it RIGHT, nobody would have said the Jefferies design was outdated or didn't "fit." They would be saying what an amazing moment and what a great design.

And what are the winning lotto numbers?

Because this is the same idea.

 

[HotRod]

Look, if they used the original Jefferies design verbatim and really detailed the hell out of it and lit it properly, and revealed it in a cool way and did it RIGHT, nobody would have said the Jefferies design was outdated or didn't "fit." They would be saying what an amazing moment and what a great design.

Bullshit.

 

[Tallguy]

Lakota versus Defiant didn't look bad at all.

But they're A HUNDRED YEARS APART! What kind of technological progression is that? They look like they're only, what, 10 years apart? Maybe?

 

[Wingcommanderdarkwolf01]

Are You guys still arguing?

 

[HotRod]

Are You guys still arguing?

Always.

 

[Dar70]

You’re not the only one.



I should have moved this to Trek Tech, but by the time I got here it was going along at a good clip. I’ll leave it here so people can ponder these very important issues.

Sorry that it got a bit out of the realm of my original post. But I guess talking about the current validity of the exterior of the ship will lead to other things....

 

[Lord Garth]

Are You guys still arguing?

It's a Canon Thread about a Prequel.

I'm on the sidelines, waiting to see if this thing reaches Page 10.