What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[Citiprime]

Here's a question about a scene that I think that, if they were doing it today, they might handle it differently because it might be controversial in the way it exists now ...

Is the Spock-Valeris mind-meld scene in The Undiscovered Country tantamount to a rape scene?

The way it's depicted, Spock definitely forces himself on Valeris and there's a weird awkwardness in their reactions both during it and afterwards. It's a mix of anger and disappointment, but also guilt and shame as well. Not only from Valeris for her crimes, but also I think in Nimoy's portrayal in that he shows Spock almost seeming, for the lack of a better word, "dirty" for having to do it.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Controversial Opinion -

All fan films are shit. All of them. I have never watched one for more than a minute without just walking away due to either bad:

1. Acting
2. Directing
3. Writing
4. VFX

 

[at Quark's]

Here's a question about a scene that I think that, if they were doing it today, they might handle it differently because it might be controversial in the way it exists now ...

Is the Spock-Valeris mind-meld scene in The Undiscovered Country tantamount to a rape scene?

The way it's depicted, Spock definitely forces himself on Valeris and there's a weird awkwardness in their reactions both during it and afterwards. It's a mix of anger and disappointment, but also guilt and shame as well. Not only from Valeris for her crimes, but also I think in Nimoy's portrayal in that he shows Spock almost seeming, for the lack of a better word, "dirty" for having to do it.

I think that was very much the intention of the scene. Violating someone is violating someone, even if it is for the 'greater good'.

 

[Orphalesion]

I always found the way Klingons and the Klingon Empire being allies tot he Federation were handled in Berman Trek to be highly problematic. Yes we get some lip-service to the Klingons being "changed" but...we also get plenty of evidence that they really haven't. There's still Klingon promotion, iirc (and I might misremember here) during the time when they were still allied with the Federation, but fighting the Cardassians we get jokes about Klingons killing people over disagreements while they are on DS9 and once they end up fighting the Federation we hear of them executing wounded and sick people in field hospitals. Also the one and only time when we possibly see much of anything of other species living in the Klingon Empire...it's the inmates of the penal colony on Rura Penthe. Our allies and good friends, ladies and gentlemen!

Yet everybody in Berman Trek has this constant attitude that they have to prostrate themselves before the Klingons and Klingon culture. Their crap always has to be accepted and acquiesced to, no matter what, or that the Klingons are never shown to return that curtsey.
One of my favourite moments in TNG season 2 is when Troi is invited to participate in one of Worf's pain stick rituals and she's like "Nah!" and walks away. Finally someone who stands up for her own needs and preferences.

Sorry about the rant, I have just really come to dislike this constant Klingon fanboying in Berman Trek over the years.

 

[Nyotarules]

Yeah the Klingons complaining about the Federation being homo sapiens only is highly hypocritical

Not really, the Klingons never claimed to be a diverse society where all species are equal. The impression is the UFP is a diverse, equal society based on Journey to Babel, TNG and ENT productions. However based on TOS and their movies, the UFP is very humancentric, especially Starfleet. Azetbur was pointing out the UFP talk not matching its reality, and why not when the UFP believe they are the better or moral society.

I always found the way Klingons and the Klingon Empire being allies tot he Federation were handled in Berman Trek to be highly problematic. Yes we get some lip-service to the Klingons being "changed" but...we also get plenty of evidence that they really haven't. There's still Klingon promotion, iirc (and I might misremember here) during the time when they were still allied with the Federation, but fighting the Cardassians we get jokes about Klingons killing people over disagreements while they are on DS9 and once they end up fighting the Federation we hear of them executing wounded and sick people in field hospitals. Also the one and only time when we possibly see much of anything of other species living in the Klingon Empire...it's the inmates of the penal colony on Rura Penthe. Our allies and good friends, ladies and gentlemen!

Yet everybody in Berman Trek has this constant attitude that they have to prostrate themselves before the Klingons and Klingon culture. Their crap always has to be accepted and acquiesced to, no matter what, or that the Klingons are never shown to return that curtsey.
One of my favourite moments in TNG season 2 is when Troi is invited to participate in one of Worf's pain stick rituals and she's like "Nah!" and walks away. Finally someone who stands up for her own needs and preferences.

Sorry about the rant, I have just really come to dislike this constant Klingon fanboying in Berman Trek over the years.

However, Troi would never lecture him or make him feel less than for having his cultural practices.
To be fair there isn't an episode where Worf invites Troi to a painstick ritual. If you are referring to Parallels, Troi is about to leave Worf to celebrate his birthday alone, and says to him in humor, you probably want to hit yourself with a painstick or something, but Worf surprises her by inviting her to stay for dinner, then he orders champagne.

In the Trek universe, if the UFP waited for every ally to meet their moral standards, then they wouldn't have any allies at all. Just like real geopolitics.

 

[Macintosh]

Also the one and only time when we possibly see much of anything of other species living in the Klingon Empire...it's the inmates of the penal colony on Rura Penthe. Our allies and good friends, ladies and gentlemen!

To be fair they weren't our allies at that point... and ask all the Mk 1 EMHs how they feel about the great and egalitarian Federation vs enforced dilithium mining.

 

[Nyotarules]

To be fair they weren't our allies at that point... and ask all the Mk 1 EMHs how they feel about the great and egalitarian Federation vs enforced dilithium mining.

Even if they were, to expect all your allies to be cultural carbon copies of your own society is arrogant and unrealistic. The USA had many allies, even during its, we don't legally treat all our citizens as equals but treat them like shit, Jim Crow phase, did its allies tell them to take a hike after WW2, no cos politically and economically they couldn't afford to.
There is a reason Saudi Arabia is considered a Western ally, and ain't because they share the same culture as ourselves.

 

[Macintosh]

Even if they were, to expect all your allies to be cultural carbon copies of your own society is arrogant and unrealistic. The USA had many allies, even during its, we don't legally treat all our citizens as equals but treat them like shit, Jim Crow phase, did its allies tell them to take a hike after WW2, no cos politically and economically they couldn't afford to.
There is a reason Saudi Arabia is considered a Western ally, and ain't because they share the same culture as ourselves.

Great point. However bad the Klingons might be they're still a major force in the quadrant, would you rather they were inside your tent pissing out or outside your tent pissing in? TNG and particularly DS9 show the Klingon-Federation alliance to be mutually beneficial, even if they don't always see eye-to-eye. If the Federation allowed the Klingons to behave as they do while being Federation members that would indeed be an issue, but that's explicitly not the case.

 

[Orphalesion]

However, Troi would never lecture him or make him feel less than for having his cultural practices.
To be fair there isn't an episode where Worf invites Troi to a painstick ritual. If you are referring to Parallels, Troi is about to leave Worf to celebrate his birthday alone, and says to him in humor, you probably want to hit yourself with a painstick or something, but Worf surprises her by inviting her to stay for dinner, then he orders champagne.

Parallels is not in season 2 is it? I'm talking about the episode where Data, Pulaski, and Wesley (possibly Geordi and/or Riker) have one of his pain stick rituals on the holodeck. Troi takes Worf to the holodeck and when he asks whether she isn't coming along she's like "Nah!" and walks away. I was applauding her for standing true to her personal needs, I would not have applauded her for going "No I will not participate in your barbaric ritual, you dirty, barbaric alien scum!" Which something Troi would not have done anyway.

Also there is a world of difference between not participating and "making people feel less". I did not advocate to make them feel less. Just I'm fan of going belly up to their every whim. You can eat your writhing worms, just don't expect me to touch the stuff.

Edit to add an example: I have a good friend from Uni who originally comes from Jordan. One year before the pandemic he decided to celebrate his birthday at a shisha bar. He invited me, I declined because I don't like smoking and wouldn't want to be in a room filled with smoke for any amount of time. I worded it "Oh sorry, I don't like smoking, so I'd rather not come." He accepted that and it didn't change our friendship. I feel in Berman Trek I would have been expected to go along despite my own discomfort because how dare I not like everything.

Even if they were, to expect all your allies to be cultural carbon copies of your own society is arrogant and unrealistic.

I think it is not fruitful go to the logical extreme of "carbon copies". There is a difference between expecting someone to be your carbon copy and standing by while they murder and enslave.

 

[wahwahkits]

Controversial Opinion -

All fan films are shit. All of them. I have never watched one for more than a minute without just walking away due to either bad:

1. Acting
2. Directing
3. Writing
4. VFX

Totally agree, they’re embarrassingly bad

 

[Tallguy]

Here's a question about a scene that I think that, if they were doing it today, they might handle it differently because it might be controversial in the way it exists now ...

Is the Spock-Valeris mind-meld scene in The Undiscovered Country tantamount to a rape scene?

The way it's depicted, Spock definitely forces himself on Valeris and there's a weird awkwardness in their reactions both during it and afterwards. It's a mix of anger and disappointment, but also guilt and shame as well. Not only from Valeris for her crimes, but also I think in Nimoy's portrayal in that he shows Spock almost seeming, for the lack of a better word, "dirty" for having to do it.

You can call it rape. I wouldn't just because we need to keep that word for rape. ("Rape rape" as Whoopi might have said.) It's forced coercion. It might even be torture. It's extreme, it's bad, and it costs Spock something. That's the intention. The stakes are interstellar war.

It's bad enough that J.M. Dillard essentially re-wrote it as something like "Spock mind melded with Valeris and made her see what was good and necessary". That doesn't explain Nimoy's performance. (I haven't read it in 30+ years. It was OK but it was no Wrath of Khan / Search for Spock.)

It's an incredibly moving scene and kudos to both of them.

Controversial Opinion -

All fan films are shit. All of them. I have never watched one for more than a minute without just walking away due to either bad:

1. Acting
2. Directing
3. Writing
4. VFX

1 - Usually. 2 - Usually. 3 - Ehhhh. Sometimes. 4 - HEY! Actually this might be where there is the widest range. You have pros that are slumming, you have talented amateurs who in some cases manage to work their way up, and you have, of course, hacks.

Sorry about the rant, I have just really come to dislike this constant Klingon fanboying in Berman Trek over the years.

Hold my sci-fi beverage. (OK, it's decaf from a Keurig. Leave me my dreams!)

I've been stewing about this all day: I hate Errand of Mercy. I hate it even more because it's an awesome episode. It's exciting, the script is great, the performances are wonderful. But at the end of the day it is possibly (probably?) morally repugnant.

It takes the point of view that the Klingon War (whatever it's called) is just One of Those Things. Silly Earthmen just can't get along with anybody. "Curious how often you humans manage to obtain that which you do not want."

Kirk and Spock go to Organia. When Kirk tries to tell the locals that really bad news is headed their way he is condescendingly told "What you're saying, Captain, is that we seem to have a choice between dealing with you or your enemies." Well... Yeah. Maybe it's a bad break. But it's also just a fact. Kirk and the Feds ARE offering an alternative. Before the Klingons show up Kirk and Spock seem willing to leave after they've said their piece. (Compared with Ambassador Fox who would not take No for an answer.)

I'm going from the point of view that the Organians are not impervious to Klingons or at least with the assumption that there are lots of other planets that are not impervious to Klingons. And that there are such planets that Klingons treated as they treated Organia. I'll trust that James T. Kirk is a reliable source on these matters.

I'm also assuming that the Organian threat is only held in the condition of the Federation and the Klingons conflicting each other. In other words it would not be the dissolution of the Empire. (Obviously the Organian embargo was phased out / ignored in later seasons. Some of the books paid attention to it. DC comics found a way to do away with it.)

We don't know what this war was about. And from the point of view of the episode that scarcely matters. War, HUH, what is it good for? A Taste of Armageddon does the same thing.

Which got me to thinking: What would be the outcome of arbitrarily halting other wars? World War Two? The American Civil War? Pick whatever one suits your fancy. The reader may have wars that they felt should have been halted and all sides told to go back to their corners. I THINK World War One might have been skipped but I bet there are historians (people that know stuff) that might disagree. Fair enough. In the case of the Klingon Federation Dispute of Stardate 3198 we have no idea. Maybe just ending the conflict is the best outcome. Or maybe it leaves a solar system or two under the Klingon Empire that would not have been.

Star Trek does not speak with one voice, not even TOS within itself. A few episodes later City on the Edge of Forever will take a very different point of view. But A Taste of Armageddon will not. (Ahhhh, Gene Coon. We love you.) A Savage Curtain takes a more nuanced (stop laughing!) point of view of war being a terrible thing but if you have it, you have it and something has to be done about it.

So, yeah. Maybe Kirk isn't some blood thirsty bigot after all, eh Mr. Meyer?

 

[MikHutch]

Not really, the Klingons never claimed to be a diverse society where all species are equal. The impression is the UFP is a diverse, equal society based on Journey to Babel, TNG and ENT productions. However based on TOS and their movies, the UFP is very humancentric, especially Starfleet. Azetbur was pointing out the UFP talk not matching its reality, and why not when the UFP believe they are the better or moral society.

It's not about being diverse so much as complaining about being assimilated when Klingons never respected other cultures

 

[Macintosh]

Not sure if I've posted this one before, maybe elsewhere, but:

The perfect design for the NX-01 was the warp delta. I've seen this referred to in novels etc as the Ganges-class. It would get around the issue of the NX-01 design basically nailing the fundamentals of future starship design immediately out of the gate even though Earth is supposed to be the least advanced planet from the four Federation founders, and also would explain where Starfleet's delta emblem originated. It should have also kept the big primitive circular sublight engines like the one in the Enterprise title sequence.

 

[Nyotarules]

Parallels is not in season 2 is it? I'm talking about the episode where Data, Pulaski, and Wesley (possibly Geordi and/or Riker) have one of his pain stick rituals on the holodeck. Troi takes Worf to the holodeck and when he asks whether she isn't coming along she's like "Nah!" and walks away. I was applauding her for standing true to her personal needs, I would not have applauded her for going "No I will not participate in your barbaric ritual, you dirty, barbaric alien scum!" Which something Troi would not have done anyway.

Also there is a world of difference between not participating and "making people feel less". I did not advocate to make them feel less. Just I'm fan of going belly up to their every whim. You can eat your writhing worms, just don't expect me to touch the stuff.

Edit to add an example: I have a good friend from Uni who originally comes from Jordan. One year before the pandemic he decided to celebrate his birthday at a shisha bar. He invited me, I declined because I don't like smoking and wouldn't want to be in a room filled with smoke for any amount of time. I worded it "Oh sorry, I don't like smoking, so I'd rather not come." He accepted that and it didn't change our friendship. I feel in Berman Trek I would have been expected to go along despite my own discomfort because how dare I not like everything.


I think it is not fruitful go to the logical extreme of "carbon copies". There is a difference between expecting someone to be your carbon copy and standing by while they murder and enslave.

OK I understand your point

 

[Tenacity]

All fan films are shit. All of them.

I have read and embrace the thought that the fan productions have more heart and are works of love, Instead of being from people that have no regard for Star Trek and at best are hired guns.

 

[at Quark's]

So, what would you rather have in principle?

Productions from professional people that are good at their jobs but have no special love for Trek, or productions from people that love trek, but are amateurs with not that much experience and perhaps not as talented, too ?

 

[fireproof78]

So, because people don't love Star Trek, but make it, that makes it less?

 

[Jedi Marso]

At that point, Picard was the only ex-assimilatee known to the Federation.

Yes, probably he was subjected to extensive questioning by Federation experts about the incident, trying to learn as much as possible about the Borg as possible, and to evaluate whether Picard was fit for duty, but that's still very different from going public with it and it wouldn't have meant a random officer like Sisko would have known much about it.

If TNG wasn't a TV show and Stewart a cast member, things in 'reality' would have gone very differently. Picard would have become a Starfleet lab rat and never held another command. Riker would have gone on as captain of the Enterprise with Shelby as his first officer, or maybe Data.

 

[Nyotarules]

I have read and embrace the thought that the fan productions have more heart and are works of love, Instead of being from people that have no regard for Star Trek and at best are hired guns.

Good intentions does not equal good entertainment

 

[at Quark's]

Not sure if I've posted this one before, maybe elsewhere, but:
The perfect design for the NX-01 was the warp delta. I've seen this referred to in novels etc as the Ganges-class. It would get around the issue of the NX-01 design basically nailing the fundamentals of future starship design immediately out of the gate even though Earth is supposed to be the least advanced planet from the four Federation founders, and also would explain where Starfleet's delta emblem originated. It should have also kept the big primitive circular sublight engines like the one in the Enterprise title sequence.

I like those designs, and the idea that the NX-01 didn't already strongly resemble its 23rd-24th descendants.

In-universe I've always rationalized the resemblance by Cochrane and Lily having seen the ENT-E. (Cochrane through a telescope and Lily from the inside and possibly some schematics), and possibly making some sketches from memory later on.