Will TOS maintain its legendary status as Trek fandom gets younger?

[Richard S. Ta]

That it was the first does not make it a legend.

It just makes it the first.

I'm not saying it doesn't have importance to me, but the larger reality is that older media will not always be regarded by youngers as legends as such.

Even Star Wars is considered less and less interesting by younger audiences in terms of the original films.

I mean, this. Being the first out of the gate is not a sign of quality or a measure of how much something should be respected. If TOS has to lean on that in order to stand, it doesn’t deserve to stand.

Fortunately, it does stand, but that’s because it’s good. Not because it’s the first.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Fortunately, it does stand, but that’s because it’s good. Not because it’s the first.

This.

There's no historical evidence claiming TOS became a cultural phenomenon / face of the franchise due to being the first in a property or franchise. Instead, its creative and cultural achievements were built on merit, sans the kind of promotional hype used to sell many current films/TV as great/relevant/exciting, etc. If Berman/CBS/JJ-Trek failed to reach that level and take the place as the face of the franchise, it certainly has no justified reason to blame TOS or the generations of fans who embrace it.

 

[fireproof78]

People should really stop blaming others for shows not succeeding. TOS is good.

Also, it was different. It was an elevated reality like Shakespeare in some ways. That current shows don't have that cultural impact speaks to the times as much as anything, not just quality. How absurd to use TOS success as a cudgel against current shows.

 

[Lord Garth]

Of course TOS was good. It lasted three seasons on a REAL network, NBC, not a joke network like UPN, or on early-evening syndication safely away from primetime competition. Considering that science-fiction, especially space-based science-fiction, notoriously doesn't do well on the Big Three (now Big Four) Networks, then or now, lasting three seasons in that type of situation is pretty respectable. Then it lasted in syndicated repeats for almost two decades before TNG came into the picture, even though it had less than 100 episodes, people enjoyed watching the episodes over and over again, and it left them wanting more. That doesn't happen if the show isn't good.

And that's what Star Trek was: a TV show. Then it became the '60s TV Series that was turned into an '80s Film Series. It did what most shows don't do: it successfully transitioned from the Small Screen to the Big Screen and switched mediums.

Then what we think of as The Franchise started. TNG begat DS9 and VOY. All three ran seven seasons each. It didn't leave people wanting more. It ran and ran and ran until people were sick of it. ENT was dead-on-arrival because a lot more people were sick of The Franchise than not, and tuned out, including me. Now it's back, with the new shows, but behind a paywall safe haven. That's TV. Then there are movies. TNG didn't translate as well to the Big Screen as TOS did, and really finished its "film" run on Streaming TV after the last actual TNG Film flopped. Two decades after the fact.

So, clearly TOS had something the other shows didn't. Clearly it was easier to adapt TOS to movies than TNG.

BUT

The topic is about TOS's staying power with young people. That traditionally means "Under 30". To them, TOS is the first of a bunch of old shows and new shows. Maybe they'll like it, maybe they won't, it depends on their tastes. At the end of the day, if I want to know what people under 30 think, I'll ask people under 30.

Speaking as a 40-something, I'm not going to use what someone under 30 thinks as a barometer for whether not I should think it's good, because I don't expect their tastes to match mine. But if the generation after me thinks something is good, I think it's good, and the generation before me thinks it's good... then I think it speaks to the appeal of something across multiple generations. And that's huge.

Unfortunately, at this point, it's only going to be people who are open to older shows and movies who'll give it a chance. To put it into perspective: a 20-year-old today looking at something from the 1960s would be similar to me looking at something from the 1940s when I was 20. As old as TOS might seem to us, I think it would seem a great deal older to them.

I like movies from the 1920s, '30s, and '40s. I even recently colorized and upscaled an early talkie in the public domain...

Spoiler

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... but I know being interested in films from that far back is a niche interest for someone on the Generation X, Millennial border. It would be a similar situation with a Zoomer watching something from the 1960s.

 

[MikHutch]

People should really stop blaming others for shows not succeeding. TOS is good.

Also, it was different. It was an elevated reality like Shakespeare in some ways. That current shows don't have that cultural impact speaks to the times as much as anything, not just quality. How absurd to use TOS success as a cudgel against current shows.

But these fanboys would rather bash new shows instead of look at the historical context

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Of course TOS was good. It lasted three seasons on a REAL network, NBC, not a joke network like UPN, or on early-evening syndication safely away from primetime competition. Considering that science-fiction, especially space-based science-fiction, notoriously doesn't do well on the Big Three (now Big Four) Networks, then or now, lasting three seasons in that type of situation is pretty respectable. Then it lasted in syndicated repeats for almost two decades before TNG came into the picture, even though it had less than 100 episodes, people enjoyed watching the episodes over and over again, and it left them wanting more. That doesn't happen if the show isn't good.

And that's what Star Trek was: a TV show. Then it became the '60s TV Series that was turned into an '80s Film Series. It did what most shows don't do: it successfully transitioned from the Small Screen to the Big Screen and switched mediums.

Let us not forget TAS; while most 1970s animated adaptations of live action were based on hit series--certainly more successful in first-run than TOS (The Addams Family, My Favorite Martian, I Dream of Jeannie, The Partridge Family, Lassie, Emergency!, etc.), Lou Scheimer saw the potential in an animated series as early as the period when TOS' was in its third season on NBC. By the time Filmation finally acted on adapting TOS, the property had exploded in to a full-on cultural phenomenon, with innumerable fans all wanting more of the characters and situations established in TOS. TAS served as yet another firm grip on a culture, letting all creatives involved that Star Trek--in its TOS form--was only growing in popularity with calls for a return to live-action.

Now it's back, with the new shows, but behind a paywall safe haven.

Key point: imagine any of the new series having to perform on network TV...its easy to imagine each not lasting more than a single season, and I seriously doubt there would be any notable level of fan outcry to renew any of that crop of shows.

So, clearly TOS had something the other shows didn't. Clearly it was easier to adapt TOS to movies than TNG.

Unsurprising, as Berman and Company purposely jettisoned the fantastic, the adult edge and maturity (of a series born during the Cold War) in favor of New Age, antiseptic finger-wagging from groups of largely colorless characters. It is no wonder TNG--nearing four decades of life--still has not become one of the deeply loved pillars of popular culture, and the Picard spin-off did TNG's legacy no favors. For an alleged "hit" series, it has not captured or brought in successive generations anywhere near the level of TOS, and as mentioned before, this nearly 40-year old series' merchandising still pales to the volume of product released based on TOS (if you compare products for both series produced since 1987), no matter which demographic the products are targeting. How / what extent IPs are licensed say as much about the reach of / consumer interest in IPs as its success in the native format, which casts a revealing light on TNG compared to its predecessor.

But if the generation after me thinks something is good, I think it's good, and the generation before me thinks it's good... then I think it speaks to the appeal of something across multiple generations. And that's huge.

True--an undeniable sign of its cultural impact, similar to Universal's horror films (particularly from the 30s and 40s) that have enjoyed a similar kind of multi-generational appeal.

 

[Lord Garth]

Key point: imagine any of the new series having to perform on network TV...its easy to imagine each not lasting more than a single season, and I seriously doubt there would be any notable level of fan outcry to renew any of that crop of shows.

I think I might actually have a dimmer view of the situation than you do. I don't think any of them would've even gotten off the ground. Period. But, for the sake of argument, if they did, I think nothing from the Kurtzman Era would've made it out of the first season. It doesn't matter what I think of any of these series individually, I have to call it the way I see it. None of the Berman-created shows would've lasted either, with the way their ratings fell.

TNG, I don't know. I lean towards it wouldn't have lasted. If you'd put the show up against the same timeslot as The Cosby Show or The Golden Girls or Cheers or any other big name '80s series, it would've been dead. For sure. If they'd put it up against shows that didn't do so well, maybe they'd have had a shot. It's dicey. I remember when I watched the show first-run, it was on Saturdays at 7:00pm. No serious competition whatsoever.

Though a strategic timeslot might've been a moot point. TNG was too expensive for any of the networks to commit. That's why they went the syndication route. CBS was willing to do a mini-series, and it probably wouldn't have gone past that. FOX was willing to do 13 episodes, but I think those would've been the only 13 episodes. Much later, Firefly only lasted 13 episodes on FOX. And that was a series with Joss Whedon behind it! Seth MacFarlane's clout was the only reason FOX bothered to greenlight The Orville at all. And even having Seth MacFarlane could only get FOX to keep it on for two seasons (the third season was on Hulu). So, I think TNG wouldn't last on any major network. Which answers the question about anything else from DS9 to now.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

But these fanboys would rather bash new shows instead of look at the historical context

Still banging that drum?

 

[Victoria]

Surely most things that are "legendary" are things about which people know very little apart from the name and some (often incorrect) facts. Legendary books tend not to be read by most people; legendary films are not watched; legendary historical characters are frequently caricatures. On that basis TOS will be legendary as the "first" and as the basis for that which followed. People will say "beam me up, Scotty" and remember the name of Spock.

Whether or not TOS will still be watched is irrelevant.

 

[MikHutch]

Still banging that drum?

What drum? I thought you said you were done with me. But it's true. This site has too many TOS fans acting smug and superior. They're like SW prequels fans

 

[fireproof78]

What drum? I thought you said you were done with me. But it's true. This site has too many TOS fans acting smug and superior. They're like SW prequels fans

Dude, all fans act smug and superior.

It's not just TOS fans. That's an absurdist line to draw. TNG fans treated me poorly for liking TOS.

It's not new or unique to TOS. At all.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

What drum? I thought you said you were done with me. But it's true. This site has too many TOS fans acting smug and superior. They're like SW prequels fans

Who cares?

 

[MikHutch]

Dude, all fans act smug and superior.

It's not just TOS fans. That's an absurdist line to draw. TNG fans treated me poorly for liking TOS.

It's not new or unique to TOS. At all.

On this site though I only encounter TOS fans like that. Do you see DS9 fans here saying "I don't count TOS as Canon"?

Who cares?

Yet you're still talking to me. If you don't want to engage then don't

 

[fireproof78]

On this site though I only encounter TOS fans like that. Do you see DS9 fans here saying "I don't count TOS as Canon

Yes.

 

[MikHutch]

Yes.

Well I guess I haven't seen them. Ofc, that's equally stupid

I just seem to only encounter the smug TOS fanboys here

 

[Richard S. Ta]

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It's not just TOS fans. That's an absurdist line to draw. TNG fans treated me poorly for liking TOS.

He's talking about... what/ About 3 people in the TOS forum?

Somehow that has become the majority of the posters on the board.

Fucking tedious.

 

[MikHutch]

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That applies more to you

I'm not going to bother with you anymore

 

[fireproof78]

Well I guess I haven't seen them. Ofc, that's equally stupid

I just seem to only encounter the smug TOS fanboys here

We're all smug.

As fans we think we know best for the franchise.

If that isn't smug I don't know what is.

 

[MikHutch]

We're all smug.

As fans we think we know best for the franchise.

If that isn't smug I don't know what is.

I try not to be. I don't always know what's best for a franchise, especially one this big

I'm just not into nostalgia obsession to where it leads to bash anything new. Every Fandom seems to become that and it makes online discussions toxic

 

[Richard S. Ta]

That applies more to you

I'm not going to bother with you anymore

Dude, at least by me, you were welcomed to this board when you signed up.

When you first came here you walked into a shitstorm of a discussion and I was one of the people telling you the whole board is not like that.

I also advised that throwing a blanket statement over the whole board and declaring the community to be a bunch of TOS fanboys was probably not the best way to make friends...

I did say that to you and in a friendly way too. You were welcomed.

But as I said, bang bang bang on the drum. It's you who can't drop this weird stance that you have about the members here. Most of us, in a general sense, like all of Star Trek, myself included. Pretty much, anyway.