Spoilers "Star Trek: Picard" and "12 Monkeys" Comparisons

[Lord Garth]

I'm on S3E4. Middle of it. It got me thinking when in the episode before, Deacon started seeing another version of himself...

I think there's a copy of Shaw. Somehow, somewhere something happened in PIC S3. That's how I think he comes back in Legacy.

S3E3 looked like Terry Matalas' response to "Equinox".

Another similarity to PIC: Now Cole and Cassie have to find and rescue their son.

EDITED TO ADD: I'm on S3E5, I love the '80s garb, and the extra quirky dialogue in this episode. Everyone looks great. Cassie and Joines look great in their costumes, Deacon looks like a yuppie asshole from Miami Vice, and Cole looks like Bender from The Breakfast Club dressing up like Marty McFly.

Cole telling Cassie if their son ends up destroying the world, he got those destructive tendencies from Cole. That's similar to Picard saying Jack got Borg DNA from him, that would lead to assimilating the entire Federation.

DOUBLE-EDIT: They worked Lea Thompson into Picard and they worked Christopher Lloyd into The 12 Monkeys! Now Terry just needs to figure out how to work Thomas Wilson into Legacy! I'm hoping Lea Thompson is on The 12 Monkeys too, but don't tell me!

TRIPLE-EDIT: BTW, it looks like at the end of the fifth episode season, the mid-way point, they've narrowed down the focus and cut out all the fat. Cole and everyone else have to find The Witness.

 

[Lord Garth]

Done with the third season. Just finished it. I won't go into spoilers anymore because, at this point, we're WAY into the deep end. Though I will point out one contrast between The 12 Monkeys and Picard Season 2 during this portion of the series:

James Callis in The 12 Monkeys and he plays Cole and Cassie's son. Whereas in PIC, James Callis plays Picard's father. That was an interesting twist.

Now here's where we get something with this series in general and how it's different from Picard, as well as Discovery for that matter. It's been on secret on this board that I prefer serialized storytelling to episodic storytelling. Where The 12 Monkeys differs from DSC and PIC is that the story keeps continuing and continuing and continuing. It doesn't just wrap itself up at the end of the season.

DSC wraps up all of its storylines at the end of its seasons. PIC Season 1 did the same. Terry Matalas knew going in that Picard was only going to be three seasons. This was all he was going to have. PIC S1 was already done by Michael Chabon, so that left Terry Matalas with only S2 and S3. I'm sure he wanted the third season to be the last "TNG Movie", so he had to use the second season to write out the original Picard cast. Which basically meant that Terry Matalas was hamstrung into having each season be its own story, since a story with the original PIC cast and a story with the TNG cast would be two different stories.

I think with Legacy, he wouldn't be hamstrung in such a manner. So he'd be allowed to start a story and have it grow from season-to-season-to-season. Which means Legacy could tell much more fleshed-out, fully-developed arcs, making it the exact opposite of SNW's episodic storytelling.

I might as well say this now: I actually like The 12 Monkeys better than Picard. It's just a lot more intricate and out-there. Especially with where I'm at right now. In turn, I like Picard a little bit better than Discovery because, ultimately, PIC has a deeper canvas to draw from. So Legacy would have the deeper canvas Picard had and the more intricate storytelling of The 12 Monkeys. It's the best of both worlds. Yes, I just went there.

Onto the final season tomorrow!

 

[Timofnine]

Can someone make a 12 Monkeys mock up of Star Trek in Picard season 3 like someone made a Muppets mock up?

 

[James Cole]

Honestly, this is why I have more leeway and goodwill for Shaw and, also Terry Matalas as a showrunner -- is Picard S3 perfect, of course not but I enjoy Matalas's writing so much and because of 12 Monkeys, there's so many easter eggs and gifts for 12 Monkeys fans who watched Picard S3.

It also helps that 12 MONKEYS has such a positive reaction among fans of the show. It's widely considered to have stuck the landing, and there are no major rifts among its fanbase.

After the series is over, I'll go back to the movie after all. Why? Because I've been here almost 25 years. I know this board. People here will say Terry Matalas can't come with anything new. Especially when talking about Legacy. I think Terry and his team created the vast majority of what is The 12 Monkeys and I'm going to demonstrably prove it, if a situation calls for it.

Yeah, best place to watch the film is after the series.

If this is Terry Matalas going all-out, then I think they can do a lot with Legacy. With so much to follow up on from TNG, DS9, or VOY that they can cherry-pick from, and the uncharted territory in the 25th Century, I think they can cover a lot of ground unfolding on multiple fronts like The Final Chapter of DS9, except it would be unfolding throughout Legacy once it would get everything it wants going, instead only having it all unfold at the same time at the very end, like what DS9 did. I like the jumping back-and-forth, and so much happening at the same time. You can resolve one storyline, but still have the others. Nothing gets dragged out, and it still feels like part of a continuing storyline instead of episodic.

The third and fourth seasons were filmed back to back, and several scenes were shot for the final episodes in advance.

If Legacy is given say a three season order, they could shoot season 3 finale scenes during season 1. They could block shoot in exotic locations, like how 12M did in the Czech Republic. And they could have a broad outline about just where everything is going.

Yesss this is why I give so much leeway to Matalas because of what he achieved here in 12 Monkeys! Also the relationship between characters is amazing, IMO.

The characters really add to the re-watchability, especially given how the show plays so differently a second time knowing everything that gets revealed.

EDITED TO ADD: I'm on S3E5, I love the '80s garb, and the extra quirky dialogue in this episode. Everyone looks great. Cassie and Joines look great in their costumes, Deacon looks like a yuppie asshole from Miami Vice, and Cole looks like Bender from The Breakfast Club dressing up like Marty McFly.

I love that episode... "If You Could Turn Back Time"... the manic heist...

James Callis in The 12 Monkeys and he plays Cole and Cassie's son. Whereas in PIC, James Callis plays Picard's father. That was an interesting twist.

Athan Prime anyone? Terry even got Callis into his season of MACGYVER...

DSC wraps up all of its storylines at the end of its seasons. PIC Season 1 did the same. Terry Matalas knew going in that Picard was only going to be three seasons. This was all he was going to have. PIC S1 was already done by Michael Chabon, so that left Terry Matalas with only S2 and S3. I'm sure he wanted the third season to the last "TNG Movie", so he had to use the second season to write out the original Picard cast. Which basically meant that Terry Matalas was hamstrung into having each season be its own story, since a story with the original PIC cast and a story with the TNG cast would be two different stories.

He wanted to have season 2 end on a massive cliffhanger leading into season 3, but was overruled. Also, season 2 is far more Akiva Goldsman than Matalas. Season 2 is even more of a Frankensteinian mash up when you're able to identify which elements likely came from whom... Almost like season 1 of DISCOVERY having Bryan Fuller's original plan stretched and twisted in all number of directions.

I think with Legacy, he wouldn't be hamstrung in such a manner. So he'd be allowed to start a story and have it grow from season-to-season-to-season. Which means Legacy could tell much more fleshed-out, fully-developed arcs, making it the exact opposite of SNW's episodic storytelling.

Here's hoping...

I might as well say this now: I actually like The 12 Monkeys better than Picard. It's just a lot more intricate and out-there. Especially with where I'm at right now. In turn, I like Picard a little bit better than Discovery because, ultimately, PIC has a deeper canvas to draw from. So Legacy would have the deeper canvas Picard had and the more intricate storytelling of The 12 Monkeys. It's the best of both worlds. Yes, I just went there.

I'm trying to think of a stronger (SF leaning) genre series from the 2010's than 12 MONEYS and am drawing a blank.

 

[Lord Garth]

He wanted to have season 2 end on a massive cliffhanger leading into season 3, but was overruled.

This has me concerned. After eight combined seasons of DSC and PIC doing serialized storytelling, I think having a story that doesn't neatly wrap up at the end of the season would be a nice change of pace. The only time we've ever had this before was DS9. And DS9 grew into it, it wasn't like that from the start.

I can think of two instances in particular where I wish they hadn't tied everything up so completely: DSC Season 3, where I think that particular storyline should've been split up over the course of two seasons; and PIC Season 1, where I think it should've had a true follow-up season of its own before the Season 2 we actually got.

Also, season 2 is far more Akiva Goldsman than Matalas. Season 2 is even more of a Frankensteinian mash up when you're able to identify which elements likely came from whom...

Now I know what I want to do next time I re-watch PIC Season 2.

EDITED TO ADD: Down to the final four episodes!

 

[James Cole]

I can think of two instances in particular where I wish they hadn't tied everything up so completely: DSC Season 3, where I think that particular storyline should've been split up over the course of two seasons; and PIC Season 1, where I think it should've had a true follow-up season of its own before the Season 2 we actually got.

I remember hearing the ending of season 3 went through reshoots to remove a cliffhanger? Apparently it's pretty easy to tell because the reshot scenes had to follow early COVID protocols, and the original material didn't.

EDITED TO ADD: Down to the final four episodes!

End at the Beginning! Don't you forget about me...

 

[Lord Garth]

I remember hearing the ending of season 3 went through reshoots to remove a cliffhanger? Apparently it's pretty easy to tell because the reshot scenes had to follow early COVID protocols, and the original material didn't.

Could've been, but that wasn't my issue with it. Without going into specifies, the first five episodes introduced the 32nd Century, and another two episodes were used to write out Georgiou so the character would be available for Section 31. Which basically left them with only six other episodes to cover everything else, only four of which had to do with the main enemy of the season. Which I don't consider to be enough time. Made worse since I like the main antagonist. Then there were also two things done in that season that I really didn't agree with. And regulars in the Disco Forum know what those are. Needless to say, while I don't dislike it, the third season is my least favorite of the series. The "we have to do everything in 13 episodes!" mentality worked against it.

But that's off-topic. Back on-topic.

Olivia's a very manipulative villain. Someone like her would be great to have in Legacy. I couldn't believe Jones "trusted" her last season.

Deacon's basically Shaw at this point. He's on our side, even if it doesn't look like it.

If they can get Denise Crosby back, I think a follow-up to "Yesterday's Enterprise" would be right up Terry Matalas' ally. Maybe she wasn't executed like Sela said. I wouldn't put it past her to lie. I also wouldn't put it past the Romulans to make it look like she died, to prevent the Federation from investigating anything about Enterprise-C survivors.

Don't you forget about me...

I'll be around...

 

[Lord Garth]

Finished The 12 Monkeys! More thoughts when I have more time. But I made it to the end, and what an ending. I'll definitely watch the series again, when I buy it on Blu-Ray!

Just for the Hell of it:

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[James Cole]

Finished The 12 Monkeys! More thoughts when I have more time. But I made it to the end, and what an ending. I'll definitely watch the series again, when I buy it on Blu-Ray!

I'm glad you liked it.

There are many deleted scenes and even some webisodes to look forward to on the BD...

Yeah, I know several people on this BBS love to attack and dehumanize me for liking Terry Matalas' work... but 12 MONKEYS speaks for itself. No matter how much I dislike Star Trek under Alex Kurtzman, Terry's involvement was enough to get me to check it out again.

It's really cool how far ahead they planned, especially regarding Cole's family tree, shooting scenes for the finale during seasons 3 and 4, and how they had a climatic ending that concluded on a positive note. There's so much "The Last Generation" relates the the 12M finale thematically and tonally.

Also, Guinan in PICARD season 2 has a bit of a Primary vibe, albeit filtered through an Akiva Goldsman prism.

 

[Lord Garth]

I know several people on this BBS love to attack and dehumanize me for liking Terry Matalas' work... but 12 MONKEYS speaks for itself. No matter how much I dislike Star Trek under Alex Kurtzman, Terry's involvement was enough to get me to check it out again.

Well, I'm WAY more familiar with his work outside of PIC now, and I actually bothered to watch The 12 Monkeys in its entirety, unlike them, and you've seen how hard I stick up for things I'm a fan of, so...

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, I know several people on this BBS love to attack and dehumanize me for liking Terry Matalas' work... but 12 MONKEYS speaks for itself.

The only thing I will ever disagree with is giving carte blanche to anyone regarding a property. No one gets that from me, regardless of past work.

My only disagreement with Terry is that I don't think S3 was any different from past newer Trek series. That's it. Like what you like but Matalas doesn't get a free pass because another show he made was considered good.

 

[Lord Garth]

I'm going to get a drink drink before I put on the movie tonight, because, unlike the series, I expect it to be total shit.

 

[Commander Troi]

I'm going to get a drink drink before I put on the movie tonight, because, unlike the series, I expect it to be total shit.

It's not total shit, but the show is infinitely better.

 

[fireproof78]

Friends of mine in college liked it.

I've never seen it. Garth's journey has been interesting.

 

[grimorie]

12 Monkeys is such a great show, especially since its so well planned and I highly recommend rewatching s1 after the ending, or st least episode 9 of season 1 and how different that scene reads with more context!

This is why I am excited to see what Matalas does to a show where he’s not hamstrung and he’s allowed to build up— the complicated characters and their relationships, gut wrenching choices, really creative use of sci fi tropes, fun and comedic episodes. Episodic series with an overarching arc. Bringing in some of the 12 Monkeys actors particularly Barbara Sukowa would be fantastic, she’s such a great actor and its a shame we haven’t seen more from her.

 

[Lord Garth]

It's not total shit, but the show is infinitely better.

I'm 40 minutes in and this movie is painful to watch. Though I'll force myself to soldier through to the end. Other than the name "James Cole", him being sent back in time, the name "12 Monkeys", and there being a "Kathryn Railly", this movie is nothing like the show. So far, it looks like it's 99% different.

I was right. Terry Matalas and his team came up with the vast majority of what's in The 12 Monkeys on their own.

Pivoting back to Picard. I think Season 2 uses more The 12 Monkeys story elements than Season 3. The things Picard Season 3 has in common with The 12 Monkeys are set design, lighting, the parent/offspring dynamics, and an overall sense of scale. Plus Todd Staswick as Deacon/Shaw.

----- CONSILDATING POSTS -----

Also, Guinan in PICARD season 2 has a bit of a Primary vibe, albeit filtered through an Akiva Goldsman prism.

I can see that.

One more thing I picked up on is that when Olivia was looking back whenever/wherever she did, she saw through the eyes of someone else, whose body should would use as a proxy. Similar to the Watcher in Picard.

EDITED TO ADD: 49 minutes into the movie, it starts off like the series did, with Cole and Railly in the car. Almost like, on the show, they wanted to cut out all the crap from earlier and get right into it. Smart move on their part. But still. The execution of the same idea couldn't be more different.

DOUBLE-EDIT: The idea of a character starting off in an asylum. In the movie, that's where Cole ends up as soon as we first see him in the past. In the series, they do that with Jennifer Goines instead. That works in that no one is going to be hooked onto a series if the main character is stuck in a mental institute. In the movie, it's Jeffrey Goines instead of Jennifer Goines. Jeffrey is a "fruit case" radical who forms an army. "The army of the 12 Monkeys". So, a lot more simplistic.

In the movie, Cole and Railly have no romantic chemistry whatsoever. Even worse: In the movie, Cole has Railly tied up and on a bed! [EDITED TO ADD: And then Cole ties her up and throws her in the trunk of a stolen car!] They definitely changed Cole's character for the better in the series.

Seriously. The movie plays like a really, really, really rough draft.

One hour, 10 minutes down. One hour to go. I'm shutting this off for now. My sense, so far: On a scale of 1 to 10, just for context, I give Picard and Terry Matalas' The 12 Monkeys roughly a 9 (which is about as good as it gets with me because individual episodes might get 10s but an entire series is never going to average out to that, it's just not possible). I give Discovery roughly an 8. I give most of the rest of Star Trek either a 7 or 8. And this film version of The 12 Monkeys... I give it a 3 for the first half. I'm not feeling it. It feels like a chore to watch. And I never felt that way with the series. Not even once.

----- CONSOLIDATING POSTS AGAIN -----

12 Monkeys is such a great show, especially since its so well planned and I highly recommend rewatching s1 after the ending, or st least episode 9 of season 1 and how different that scene reads with more context!

There are a few episodes I'm going to re-check individually, including that one. I'm not re-watching PIC Season 3 until I get a complete day off (with nothing else going on) to re-watch the whole thing from start-to-finish. So, in the meantime....

I'll also re-watch a few episodes of PIC Season 2 every day with my new perspective as a 12 Monkeys Fan.

EDITED TO ADD: Putting on the rest of the 12 Monkeys movie. One hour left of it. Then I can truly say I went the distance.

DOUBLE-EDIT: Only 20 minutes left. I've stopped and re-started watching this a few times. It's funny. When Cole and Railly put on their wigs, they closer to the way the characters look in the series. It's weird. Terry Matalas and company must've figured the characters look better that way. Which I agree with.

TRIPLE-EDIT: Jose in the movie is like Ramsii in the series. Except Jose and Cole aren't "brothers" and he plays a much smaller part.

 

[Lord Garth]

Finished the movie. I feel like that whole thing went nowhere. The 3 out of 10 stands. There were no clear goals, the story takes forever to get to any kind of point, and nothing is changed by the end to any end. Nothing is really done with the characters. It doesn't feel like anything adds up.

Terry Matalas took the husk of the film and turned the very broad strokes into the series I just finished. So, if you're reading this thread, and looking for my advice if you're curious: don't even bother watching the movie. Go straight to the series.

I'm glad I watched the series because I got the sense that I was missing something when it came to Picard Seasons 2 and 3. I re-watched all of TNG and every Seven-focused episode of VOY before Picard started so I'd have a refreshed memory and would feel like I could make an intelligent and informed comparison between TNG/VOY and PIC. Now I can do the same with 12M and PIC. I don't like going into a discussion and knowing there's an angle I'm missing. So, thank you TrekBBS for helping me discover this series.

.
.
.

But, it doesn't stop there. Just one more thing to check out. The 12 Monkeys film itself was actually based on a French short film from 1962 called La Jetee. I found it on YouTube and it has English sub-titles, so I'm watching that now. I'll edit in comments on that, if I have any.

It's only 28 minutes.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

EDITED TO ADD: I'm glad I watched La Jetee.

It looks like Terry Matalas' 12M borrows a lot more from La Jetee than from the 1995 film. The character isn't named James Cole, but I'll call him "Cole" just to make it easier. None of these characters are named. In La Jetee, Humanity is decimated by World War III instead of a plague. The last image of peacetime that Cole remembers is from his childhood and it's of a woman, who I'll call "Railly". When he grows up, Cole is a prisoner who's experimented on. Scientists are able to monitor Cole's thoughts and decide he's the best test subject to be sent back in time since he has this memory of this woman (just go with it... ), so they hook him up to this elaborate device and send him back to a time that looks like Present Day (at least in 1962) and he meets Railly in the flesh. It's a peaceful meeting, unlike in the series or the 1995 film, and he visits her time and again, up to 50 times. They enjoy each other's company and it becomes romantic.

After these 50 times of being sent into the past, the scientists decide to send Cole into The Distant Future, a society incomprehensible to those in Cole's time. Then it's discovered that they can time-travel too, and easier.

The scientists in Cole's time decide that if society is going to evolve into something better, then they can't undo the past, and Cole's usefulness to them is over. They sentence him to death, since he was a prisoner, but those from the Distant Future intervene and Cole is instead sent back to the time of his childhood, Railly's time, so he can be with her. As he arrives in Railly's time, he runs to her to live with her happily ever after after, and then he's gunned down. The image of Railly that was one of the first things he ever remembered is the last thing he ever sees.

The End.

It's a French film, so the rules are different, but I like it anyway. I'd definitely show it to a few of my more artsy friends. It also does something unusual. The film is shot using stills almost exclusively and is entirely narrated. So, the film is able to cover a lot more ground in a half-hour than it would've as a narrative unfolding in a traditional way.

I think Terry Matalas and his collaborators watched this, realized how much the 1995 film didn't do The 12 Monkeys justice, and based their series on La Jetee instead. La Jetee is also very thumbnail. But it's much closer to the series than the 1995 film is.

They took the outline of this movie, changed some things, took a few things from the 1995 film, and then filled in all the details La Jetee left vague, and created an entire series to fill in all the broad strokes.

I definitely recommend La Jetee if you haven't seen it.

.
.
.

What this tells me about Legacy is that Terry Matalas will look at whatever was underdeveloped from TNG/DS9/VOY or had unfulfilled potential and bring that to the surface.

Picard Season 3 was about giving TNG a proper ending. I think Legacy will/would be about seeing what they can take from before and turn into their own.

 

[fireproof78]

Why is it called 12 Monkeys, for the initiated?

Thank you, mi lord, for your review.

 

[Lord Garth]

Why is it called 12 Monkeys, for the initiated?

The Army of the 12 Monkeys is a cult group behind the plague that wipes out most of Humanity. Their leader is The Witness.

 

[Lord Garth]

I just finished re-watching the first episode of Picard Season 2, "Stargazer". Some things stood out to me.

First, when Picard is talking to Guinan about his past romantic relationships, he's very careful not to name names, but none of what he says contradicts having on-and-off-again romantic relationships with Beverly. It as just vague enough to leave everything a mystery. So it was interesting to see that, knowing what I know now, and seeing where Terry laid down groundwork to contrast the beginning with the end, like when Picard says he'll be the last Picard.

Second, when Jurati boards the Stargazer, she mentions the burden Captain Rios feels living up a legacy. I see what Terry Matalas did there.

Third, I wasn't expecting to notice any connections to The 12 Monkeys in this episode, other than what I mentioned before about the song "Time Is On My Side", but there were some things that stood out to me:

• Picard calls time the true final frontier during his address to the Starfleet Cadets. 12M is the Master Class on a time-travel series.
• The Jurati Borg Queen is like Future Cole, a.k.a. "Future Asshole" and, by the end of the season, it'll all make sense.

BTW, since I'm back on Picard now, I have to stick it to the Anti-Nostalgia Crowd. So, I've changed my avatar to a picture of myself from 2002. Literally weeks before Nemesis came out.

If you told me back then I'd actually be looking forward to another "TNG Movie" in 20 years, I never would've believed you. The only one I liked was First Contact. But Terry Matalas gave Generations and Nemesis the middle-finger.