Harsh realities of rewatching Star Trek Voyager

[Tenacity]

Unfortunately they did that. Serious events which happened in previous episodes were never mentioned again, even if they did affect certain characters a lot.

Harry Kim is killed, replaced with a Harry Kim from another universe (Naomi Wildman too), You'd think this would have come up in passing.

 

[Oddish]

Maybe. But that should have resulted in Tuvok and neelix being lost for ever. Would a Starfleet tribunal have done that?

A Youtuber I follow who is very much on the "Janeway committed murder" side of the argument, defended his argument by quoting "Phage".

JANEWAY: "[Your people] may have found a way to ignore the moral implications of what you are doing, but I have no such luxury. I don't have the freedom to kill you to save another. My culture finds that to be a reprehensible and entirely unacceptable act..."

In his words, he says that Janeway thinks Janeway committed murder. And that's a hard argument to oppose!

 

[Drone]

A Youtuber I follow who is very much on the "Janeway committed murder" side of the argument, defended his argument by quoting "Phage".

JANEWAY: "[Your people] may have found a way to ignore the moral implications of what you are doing, but I have no such luxury. I don't have the freedom to kill you to save another. My culture finds that to be a reprehensible and entirely unacceptable act..."

In his words, he says that Janeway thinks Janeway committed murder. And that's a hard argument to oppose!

Angels spinning atop a pin here, but Tuvix's existence, which had validity and agency, could have readily been maintained, by cloning him through transporter hijinks, prior to the reintegration.

However, out-of-universe, I doubt the showrunners felt the scenario presented in the episode was compelling enough to arrange for the character's return, a couple of times down the road, putting aside Wright's interest in doing so. I'm not sure how much interest in such a tack would've really attracted in a ST series, even during the era of 26 episode seasons.

Of course, one can point to a similar fault (albeit, greatly magnified) in Caretaker. Why not simply have set the detonation of the Array on a delayed fuse? Naturally, that sort of tautology would've ended the series, just as it's premiere came to a close, so that was never going to happen, even in an attempt which somehow went askew, likely just resulting in Janeway being marked as incompetent from the get-go.

 

[Drone]

Harry Kim is killed, replaced with a Harry Kim from another universe (Naomi Wildman too), You'd think this would have come up in passing.

It's another interesting stick to knock Kim's character around with, I suppose, but in reality, aside from his awareness of the paradigm, weren't the two iterations nearly unequivocally identical, save the different experiences they endured in the episode? Aside from its oddity, it hardly seems worth being mindful about.

 

[Drone]

Lynx,

Part of what's implicit in the explanation, is Lien's absolute reticence to open herself up to anyone, essentially. We've known this about her since the time the show was still in its initial run, or at most, very shortly thereafter. Several cast members have mentioned how the showrunners made a point of being available to meet with all of them, prior to the beginning of each new season, so as to hear thoughts they might have on how their characters' arc might be more felicitously developed during the coming year. It seems clear Lien never once chose to take advantage of the opportunity.

Indeed, I've seen Picardo and Russ speak to how insular and non-communicative she was, in sharing anything about herself, off-camera. She really only spoke through her craft, which was truly wondrous, IMO. This track does seem to substantiate what Taylor said in the book.

Besides, at the time it was put together, was there really a hue and cry abroad to produce a revised statement about the matter? I grant I've visited here only a scant number of times over a good number of years, but my distinct impression is the 'budget not permitting an additional cast member and People magazine scenario', had long since become the commonly accepted truth. Simply, I don't find it very plausible for the information to have been laid bare, if not genuine, and unless there was an agreement, at long last, that keeping it under wraps, no longer served any purpose (even with the suspicions you harbor for it being done in the first place).

Regardless, I'm very heartened to gather Lien hasn't appeared to have been involved in any criminal matters since the last one, in 2018. One can only hope she's found some measure of peace and relative healthiness, after all the distressing and dangerous tumult of the half-dozen years before that last prolonged encounter with the legal system.

Doubtless, you're aware of it, but Jennifer's birthday is but a few days off. I guess it's just dependent on members starting a thread, but maybe the occasion will be noted by a few folks, in some forum or other!!!

 

[Lynx]

Lynx,

Part of what's implicit in the explanation, is Lien's absolute reticence to open herself up to anyone, essentially. We've known this about her since the time the show was still in its initial run, or at most, very shortly thereafter. Several cast members have mentioned how the showrunners made a point of being available to meet with all of them, prior to the beginning of each new season, so as to hear thoughts they might have on how their characters' arc might be more felicitously developed during the coming year. It seems clear Lien never once chose to take advantage of the opportunity.

Indeed, I've seen Picardo and Russ speak to how insular and non-communicative she was, in sharing anything about herself, off-camera. She really only spoke through her craft, which was truly wondrous, IMO. This track does seem to substantiate what Taylor said in the book.

Besides, at the time it was put together, was there really a hue and cry abroad to produce a revised statement about the matter? I grant I've visited here only a scant number of times over a good number of years, but my distinct impression is the 'budget not permitting an additional cast member and People magazine scenario', had long since become the commonly accepted truth. Simply, I don't find it very plausible for the information to have been laid bare, if not genuine, and unless there was an agreement, at long last, that keeping it under wraps, no longer served any purpose (even with the suspicions you harbor for it being done in the first place).

Regardless, I'm very heartened to gather Lien hasn't appeared to have been involved in any criminal matters since the last one, in 2018. One can only hope she's found some measure of peace and relative healthiness, after all the distressing and dangerous tumult of the half-dozen years before that last prolonged encounter with the legal system.

Doubtless, you're aware of it, but Jennifer's birthday is but a few days off. I guess it's just dependent on members starting a thread, but maybe the occasion will be noted by a few folks, in some forum or other!!!

I get the impression that Jennifer was a very shy and introvert person too which might be the reason that she never took the opportunity to take those discussions with the showrunners. Just like some band members in rock bands dominated by forceful leaders and songwriters, she just did what she was ordered to do.

Maybe with good reasons too, considering what happened to Beltran and Wang.

But on the other hand, it didn't save her from being axed. Who knows, maybe that was the reason she was dumped. They knew that she never would stand up against them, like Beltran and Wang might have done.

Also notice that what we got here are their versions, like Taylor's comment plus overall comments from other cast members about her being shy and non-communicative.

Who knows, maybe Jennifer did have some suggestions for her character and they were just waved aside, like Wang's and Beltran's suggestions for their characters and she simply gave up after trying.

It would be interested to see something from some objective, investigating author or some biography written by people like Beltran and Wang about what really happened behind the curtains.

I recently read a book about a rock star whose life took a turn to the worse, due to drug abuse and other problems. The guy who wrote it is a fan of this artist and the music but he didn't hold back when it came to describe what happened and about the rock stars own fault and mistakes when it came to how his carreer was shattered.

If an outside person could write such a story about the reasons for Jennifer's firing, I would have more faith in that than what I have to people who have lied twice about the reasons for the "changes in season 4".

As for those statements, I remember being somewhat shocked when I read that Kes was out of the picture. I had just started to watch Voyager in te beginning of 1998 and up to then avoided everything about the series on different forums becasue I wouldn't spoil the fun of watching the show without knowing what would happen.

However, on some forum I stumbled over the comments that "Jennifer had left of her own free will" and nothing more. I remeber that there were those who questioned that because it happened around the same time that Seven arrived and the hype around that character started.

Then after a while, they came up with the tale about "the writers couldn't come up with stories about her" which I found downright hilarious, if not stupid and downright insulting. Plus some comments about "mutual agreement" which made the warning bells start ringing because that comment is always usual when it comes to foul play, ever since the days when Pete Best was kicked out from The Beatles.

Anyway, whatever happened and whatever the truth in those official statements or not, I hope that Jennifer has got her life back in order, just as you wrote. I also hope that she will be remembered and regarded for her work on Voyager.

Angels spinning atop a pin here, but Tuvix's existence, which had validity and agency, could have readily been maintained, by cloning him through transporter hijinks, prior to the reintegration.

However, out-of-universe, I doubt the showrunners felt the scenario presented in the episode was compelling enough to arrange for the character's return, a couple of times down the road, putting aside Wright's interest in doing so. I'm not sure how much interest in such a tack would've really attracted in a ST series, even during the era of 26 episode seasons.

Of course, one can point to a similar fault (albeit, greatly magnified) in Caretaker. Why not simply have set the detonation of the Array on a delayed fuse? Naturally, that sort of tautology would've ended the series, just as it's premiere came to a close, so that was never going to happen, even in an attempt which somehow went askew, likely just resulting in Janeway being marked as incompetent from the get-go.

I would have liked if they had managed to keep Tuvix alive and bringing Tuvok and Neelix back at the same time. However, what should they have done with Tuvix story-wise? How would he had fitted into the ongoing story?

Sometimes I wish that they would have kept Wixiban on the ship, due to the fact that Neelix could be blamed for his time in prison. It would have been problems even there to make him fit into the ongoing story but it might have been easier than with Tuvix. But it may have worked with Tuvix, who knows.

The most interesting thing about this is that we still discuss and argue about what happened so many years after the episode was made! Therefore the episode must be regarded as a masterpiece!

A Youtuber I follow who is very much on the "Janeway committed murder" side of the argument, defended his argument by quoting "Phage".

JANEWAY: "[Your people] may have found a way to ignore the moral implications of what you are doing, but I have no such luxury. I don't have the freedom to kill you to save another. My culture finds that to be a reprehensible and entirely unacceptable act..."

In his words, he says that Janeway thinks Janeway committed murder. And that's a hard argument to oppose!

I don't think that Janeway herself really knew if it was the right decision or not.

As I see it, she had to choose between two downright horrible decisions. I think she did chose the less horrible one.

 

[Oddish]

As I see it, she had to choose between two downright horrible decisions. I think she did chose the less horrible one.

That's the utilitarian approach to a T... if there's no good option, choose the less horrible one. The good of Neelix, Tuvok, Kes, Tuvok's family, and those who regarded both men as friends comes before the good of one individual. Ergo, Tuvix's separation is justified.

The Doctor's position was the deontological one, based in principles rather than mathematics. Destroying Tuvix, even for a greater good, violated his core principle of primum non nocere ("I am a physician, and a physician must do no harm").

Angels spinning atop a pin here, but Tuvix's existence, which had validity and agency, could have readily been maintained, by cloning him through transporter hijinks, prior to the reintegration.

My theory is that Riker's duplication was reliant on very specific atmospheric conditions, and could not be routinely duplicated. Otherwise, it posts the question of "why not just store the patterns of every away team as they depart"? Imagine if Tasha Yar was pronounced dead... then Beverly simply said "Initiate Transporter Revival Protocol." Tasha's corpse vanishes, and then is rematerialized in the transporter room, good as new. Only thing she loses is the memory of the away mission.

If such a thing were possible, then yes. As long as Tuvix is sedated, then duplicated, and one duplicate is split without ever regaining consciousness. And I can just imagine the three of them on away missions after that...

It's another interesting stick to knock Kim's character around with, I suppose, but in reality, aside from his awareness of the paradigm, weren't the two iterations nearly unequivocally identical, save the different experiences they endured in the episode? Aside from its oddity, it hardly seems worth being mindful about.

And besides...
Kim died from decompression.
Kim escaped Voyager before its warp core blew.
Naomi died from complications from childbirth.
Naomi left Voyager in Kim's arms before the warp core blew.
Everyone else on Voyager died when the ship's warp core blew.
Everyone else on Voyager survived when the Vidiian threat was neutralized.

They're all dead.
They're all alive.
They're all on an equal footing.

 

[ussrowe]

Harry Kim is killed, replaced with a Harry Kim from another universe (Naomi Wildman too), You'd think this would have come up in passing.

I think it was more complicated that that, all of Voyager got split into 2 existences with neither really having a claim to "original" more than the other except for the majority of survivors being on one ship and a couple on the other.

In his words, he says that Janeway thinks Janeway committed murder. And that's a hard argument to oppose!

"He" wasn't really anything more than a transporter merger than got un-merged. That's it. Neelix and Tuvok were merged into one being, with an orchid, and then split back apart. Yeah the EMH's programming couldn't handle that and refused to do it but Janeway didn't murder anyone since no one died.

 

[fireproof78]

They're all dead.
They're all alive.
They're all on an equal footing.

Schrodinger's Starship?

 

[Oddish]

"He" wasn't really anything more than a transporter merger than got un-merged. That's it. Neelix and Tuvok were merged into one being, with an orchid, and then split back apart. Yeah the EMH's programming couldn't handle that and refused to do it but Janeway didn't murder anyone since no one died.

That's probably why Janeway didn't get thrown in the brig, either on the spot by Tuvok or five years later by Starfleet. A being like Tuvix would not have enjoyed the protection of the law. However, had he survived long enough to appeal to a Starfleet tribunal, that might have changed.

Schrodinger's Starship?

Only the paradox doesn't resolve when the box is opened.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

My theory is that Riker's duplication was reliant on very specific atmospheric conditions, and could not be routinely duplicated. Otherwise, it posts the question of "why not just store the patterns of every away team as they depart"? Imagine if Tasha Yar was pronounced dead... then Beverly simply said "Initiate Transporter Revival Protocol." Tasha's corpse vanishes, and then is rematerialized in the transporter room, good as new. Only thing she loses is the memory of the away mission.

Imagine a Trek episode about an alien society that keeps doing that, and the hero ship finds out when one of their crewmembers dies and is revived by the aliens they're cooperating with on an away mission, several times. They keep returning to the ship with what is believed to be short-term amnesia, with no obvious cause (no wounds or medical conditions) Dilemma is you can't let it get out, because they've been doing that with their people for years, and not telling them.

 

[Oddish]

It's not exactly immortality, just the ability to undo a mistake. You won't learn from it, but those around you might.

 

[Drone]

That's the utilitarian approach to a T... if there's no good option, choose the less horrible one. The good of Neelix, Tuvok, Kes, Tuvok's family, and those who regarded both men as friends comes before the good of one individual. Ergo, Tuvix's separation is justified.

The Doctor's position was the deontological one, based in principles rather than mathematics. Destroying Tuvix, even for a greater good, violated his core principle of primum non nocere ("I am a physician, and a physician must do no harm").

I find it somewhat illogical, if not hypocritical, of the Doctor to have, then, even worked on this solution, as a successful process would have ALWAYS led to such an end for Tuvix's existence. Why bother trotting out the Oath at the last moment instead of simply refraining to even make the effort?

 

[Oddish]

I find it somewhat illogical, if not hypocritical, of the Doctor to have, then, even worked on this solution, as a successful process would have ALWAYS led to such an end for Tuvix's existence. Why bother trotting out the Oath at the last moment instead of simply refraining to even make the effort?

No one realized that Tuvix didn't want to die until the Doctor had already made his discovery and made the other crew members aware of it.

 

[Farscape One]

As Tuvix said, it was the one variable they didn't account for.

 

[XCV330]

"Beltran himself has no Native ancestry, which is problematic by itself"

Considering Beltran's mexican origins, this is most certanly not true. The average mexican is around half native american, genetically speaking.

And, honestly, Beltran looks like someone who has such ancestry.

Although, I do agree that the portrayal was problematic, due to its stereotypical and nondescript nature.

As Beltran said, the character should have been an Mayan.

You know when a thread gets underway with paper-bag testing Beltran, it's going to.. suck.

 

[Michael Two Wolves]

I don't get the whole issue with Seven of Nine's suit. Who tf cares? Omg, so what you can see her curves? Have you seen what Kirk was doing? I'm amazed the next Star Trek series isn't titled, The Search For Kirk's Kids.

There's far too much of a high school locker room feel to how Seven and her relationships were treated, yes. It was juvenile and puerile. However, rather than throw her in a body suit and tip toed around her burgeoning personality, it should have been featured more and her clothing should have adapted more to show the character letting go of Borg ways.

Personally, she was one of my favorite characters, and her physical attractiveness was only secondary to her personality which definitely showed she was aware of the effect of her physical presence. Pretty sure they even played with that idea in one of the episodes where she was getting used to the idea that others might be interested in her beyond just business.

 

[Oddish]

Seven was a character introduced to get the horny fanboys off, but she evolved into a character who was truly interesting. Proof that when the VOY writers wanted to develop a character, they could. Too bad they hardly ever did.

 

[Michael Two Wolves]

I loved watching her "grow up" and develop. She was one of the deepest characters on the show.

 

[Oddish]

I loved watching her "grow up" and develop. She was one of the deepest characters on the show.

They had three main characters with the potential for significant change: Seven, Kes, and Harry. Can you imagine if they had taken all three of those kids on a journey of growth like Seven's?