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Spock/Chapel are not a good couple. The build up was the ''fun'' part

I notice the 'Mary Sue' term rearing its head here quite a bit, with someone even claiming that Kirk is a 'mary sue' character.

A 'mary sue' is when a writer effectively writes themselves into the story in the form of a new 'secondary character', but in such a way that they overshadow the main characters and become the central piece of the narrative. They commonly solve all the problems, give advice to the main characters, romance the main characters, and know more than the main characters when they shouldn't. In the end, they often save the day, relegating the regular cast to the sidelines. A 'mary sue' is essentially a writer making themselves (by proxy of their character) the unlikely hero of the story.

Kirk and Spock were the main characters of TOS, so by that yardstick alone they cannot be considered mary sue characters.

Chapel is an established character from TOS, and she isn't written by any one writer. The writers can be accused of 'over-writing' her, or giving her mary sue elements, but aside from a couple of egregious lapses (killer combat kung fu girl on popeye juice), she largely stays within the lane of her position and abilities. The romance stuff with Spock has been atrocious, and her being sole survivor on the Cuyoga was pure, story-breaking plot armor that was only needed because the writers wanted to touch your Spock/Chapel feelies in the finale. But a mary sue? Not even close.

Side note: The Cuyoga situation would have been much better handled and much more believable if Chapel had stayed on the surface with Batel, been rescued from there along with Batel, and Enterprise had simply scanned 'no survivors' before Spock iced the Gorn and sent the saucer plunging into the beacon.

But, anyway. TLDR: You keep saying 'Mary Sue'. I do not think it means what you think it means. ;)
He's simping. Looks like he is already on his way to getting over it.



Indeed. Zero. In fact, it has been remarked on as the most contrived, story-breaking element of the episode. Chapel, the sole survivor of the Cuyoga.



Chapel doesn't come close to the technical definition of a mary sue, but some of those elements were starting to emerge this season. Hopefully we're moving past that.



My hope is that we've already seen the end, other than the inevitable angst and sideways looks.



As we both admit that the Cuyoga situation was bad,it prompts the case that she is a mary sue in that moment. a mary sue is a character who tends to be special for no real reason or no good explanation. The writing could have been better if Chapel explained how she survived when others did not. Chapel been the lone survivor of the Cuyoga makes her special or different for no reason. She scores here as a maru sue.


The notion that we can admit they needed to make the Cuyoga more believable is what makes her a mary sue because mary sue characters tends to have little realism to be believed. Mary Sues also tend to be in poorly written romances, the mary sue’s partner will act out of character just to please her and not make her take any responsibilities of some of her own short comings.

Spock acts this way when he says he wants to apologise to her even if from the audience’s point of view, Chapel was the one who hurt him more. From the little we saw in the romance, Spock did try to help her but she kept on blowing him off until the public break up. These are mary sues symptoms we see in Chapel and in the romance.
 
It is not well written.

Spock should have waited longer before he got with Chapel, after Tpring wanted a cool off. I would have preferred it, if after Charades, they build spock/chapel more as friends more and they have their first kiss in the last episode of season 2, leaving season 3 open to explore the romance. It would have been better writing than Spock rushing to be with Chapel before Tpring left the ship.

Bolimer should not have revealed that They were not together in the future after they only got together like yesterday. The writers had them together in the last episode only for them to sow the seeds of a break up in the next episode.

Chapel breaking it off with him in Subspace Rhapsody was bad and made little sense.

Well written romance even in star trek do not rush things, The SNW writers just forced a lot on us.

Well written romance tend to last longer. the couple should have more happy times without drama for the sake of it. I love DS9 for this. I love TNG for this. SNW Spock/Chapel do not have the same factor. They read more like a teen soap. If Chapel is meant to be Spock's first love. They could have done it better.
You think it should have been done a different way. It wasn't. Some people enjoyed the way it was written, but might also have enjoyed the way you think it should have been done.
But it wasn't.
 
it prompts the case that she is a mary sue in that moment. a mary sue is a character who tends to be special for no real reason or no good explanation.
No. A Mary Sue is an author insert character whom everyone loves regardless.

Chapel is not that. She has flaws (self-admitted ones). That she survives is the curse of being in the main credits, not a symptom of being a Mary Sue.

You think it should have been done a different way. It wasn't. Some people enjoyed the way it was written, but might also have enjoyed the way you think it should have been done.
But it wasn't.
Indeed. I don't like the Spock/Chapel relationship but that has nothing to do with Chapel as a character or Spock or any Mary Sue traits and everything to do with a general distaste for most romances in Trek. That someone doesn't like it doesn't make it bad. Relationships, both in fiction and in real life, and messy, complicated, turbulent things. People say "Sorry" for a lot of reasons; my wife says "Sorry" to me when I have a bad day at work. Does that make me have Mary Sue traits?

Great, now I'm going to have an existential crisis and it's not even 10 AM. :wtf:
 
No. A Mary Sue is an author insert character whom everyone loves regardless.

Chapel is not that. She has flaws (self-admitted ones). That she survives is the curse of being in the main credits, not a symptom of being a Mary Sue.

Correct. I tried to explain that but the poster you are replying to here wasn't picking up what I was putting down. :cool:
 
The criticism given to Chapel been the lone survivor of the Cuyoga is me saying she is showing mary sue signs at that moment. It is up to the writers to want to expand it or not. Expanding it by making her a full mary sue, will be a bad idea since we know her in 7 years.

Now how does it for into the poorly written romance. By making her the only survivor, just so Spock could rescue her and her alone in what is a series about explorers saving people. The writers chose to sacrifice good star trek writing as an attempt to perhaps give the romance a life-line after their spontaneous break-up from the last episode that was bad enough and handled poorly already.
 
Expanding it by making her a full mary sue, will be a bad idea since we know her in 7 years.
We know what in seven years? She has limited character development, outside of being a nurse, and being Korby's fiancé.

Two, she's not a Mary Sue.

By making her the only survivor, just so Spock could rescue her and her alone in what is a series about explorers saving people.
How often has Star Trek done that? Saved the people in the main credits? People can disagree about the choices, but that doesn't make it "bad Star Trek" just because it steered in to a trope that has been around since the franchise began. Tholian Web springs immediately to mind.
 
The criticism given to Chapel been the lone survivor of the Cuyoga is me saying she is showing mary sue signs at that moment. It is up to the writers to want to expand it or not. Expanding it by making her a full mary sue, will be a bad idea since we know her in 7 years.

Now how does it for into the poorly written romance. By making her the only survivor, just so Spock could rescue her and her alone in what is a series about explorers saving people. The writers chose to sacrifice good star trek writing as an attempt to perhaps give the romance a life-line after their spontaneous break-up from the last episode that was bad enough and handled poorly already.
Your continuous beating of this same dead horse is becoming tiresome. Your opinion of the "writing" ain't anybody's canon except your own and you need a private date with Mary Sue.
 
I disliked the Spock/Chapel romance stuff from the second they started hinting that they were going to go that direction back in S1. And it’s not for any canon concerns or anything like that. Something like Spock and Chapel hooking up certainly falls into the “sure it could have happened” grey area that nu-Trek writers/producers love to live in.

It just felt…to me…like they went there because Bush and Peck have some chemistry and they wanted to give Chapel something to do besides just be M’Bengas assistant. The fact that it adds some depth to something like Amok Time is just a bonus. It doesn’t help that due to the short length of the season they didn’t have a chance to properly explore the relationship. Maybe it works better if the season was 15 eps long and you can dedicate more time to it. To sell us on it.

It reminds me a bit of Bashir and Ezri in S7 of DS9. It felt like they didn’t have an off ramp for those two characters in the final season like they did Worf (ambassador), O’Brien (becomes a teacher) or Sisko (ascends), etc… so they threw the two together and made them lovers.
 
People do rush into romances but this is Spock. He is not like most people. I have seen Spock is other romances from TOS, Kelvinverse, Novelverse , Comicverse and Spock saw getting with a woman as a big deal. He tends to take his time.
This is a younger, less mature Spock who got swept up in the moment. It happens. And if one were to take a literal interpretation of his song "I'm the X" it would seem the lessons he learns from his fling with Chapel are what molds him into being more careful with his relationships in the future.
TNG had Troi and Riker, I see them as the best star trek couple.
Yeah, no. Although we are frequently told there was romance in the past, Riker/Troi relationship was entirely platonic until Insurrection when they start playfully flirting. Then in Nemesis they get married because reasons. Maybe they are the best couple in TNG, but that just shows how bad TNG was with romance.
 
This is a younger, less mature Spock who got swept up in the moment. It happens. And if one were to take a literal interpretation of his song "I'm the X" it would seem the lessons he learns from his fling with Chapel are what molds him into being more careful with his relationships in the future.

Yeah, no. Although we are frequently told there was romance in the past, Riker/Troi relationship was entirely platonic until Insurrection when they start playfully flirting. Then in Nemesis they get married because reasons. Maybe they are the best couple in TNG, but that just shows how bad TNG was with romance.
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Yeah, no. Although we are frequently told there was romance in the past, Riker/Troi relationship was entirely platonic until Insurrection when they start playfully flirting. Then in Nemesis they get married because reasons. Maybe they are the best couple in TNG, but that just shows how bad TNG was with romance.
Absolutely awful at romance. In "Haven" Riker gets mopey about the fact that Deanna was engaged and going to get married to another guy. Not exactly a stellar relationship.
 
I personally dislike the relationship just because it has actually started to get a little toxic for both characters - but in no way is Christine a Mary Sue. She's actually a very layered character (even if some of those layers annoy the shit out of me). "Mary Sue" is a term thrown around far too often for when a (usually female) character gets focus in a show.

My main issue with the relationship is that it is frustrating ("Oh I want you/Now I don't/Wait yes I do") - but actually, it fits the weird awkward affection shown in TOS which always implied there could be history there.

T'Pring is another example though of introducing a canon-bending story without much benefit for doing so - a bit like the Gorn, what they've done with the character just isn't that thrilling and that makes people more likely to nitpick canon because it wasn't worth the bending.

I really hope they get back to Sybok with Spock - that was a relationship SNW is in a prime position to explore a little more as long as Kirk and TOS characters aren't too involved. There is nothing canon-bending about Pike and Co knowing about him ;)
 
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I personally dislike the relationship just because it has actually started to get a little toxic for both characters - but in no way is Christine a Mary Sue. She's actually a very layered character (even if some of those layers annoy the shit out of me).

My main issue with the relationship is that it is frustrating ("Oh I want you/Now I don't/Wait yes I do") - but actually, it fits the weird awkward affection shown in TOS which always implied there could be history there.

T'Pring is another example though of introducing a canon-bending story without much benefit for doing so - a bit like the Gorn, what they've done with the character just isn't that thrilling and that makes people more likely to nitpick canon because it wasn't worth the bending.

I really hope they get back to Sybok with Spock - that was a relationship SNW is in a prime position to explore a little more as long as Kirk and TOS characters aren't too involved. There is nothing canon-bending about Pike and Co knowing about him ;)
I don't think every character should be perfect but I would prefer them to be likeable. Chapel and Spock are likeable even with their character flaws. Chapel at this point doesn't know what she wants. That sucks for Spock who wants her. Then by the time she knows that she does want him, he's decided to move beyond all that malarkey.

Whether post TMP they are both in the same place is anyone's guess. They are both still quite young, around 40ish.
 
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