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DC Movies - To Infinity and Beyond

Perhaps one day I'll understand this desire for a Superman who's capable of doing "terrible things." But I sincerely hope not, because on that day I'll know that cynicism and hopelessness have won.
Probably because it is very human. On the one had, we avoid existential dread by distancing ourselves from others who do horrible things. "I would never do that" sounds much easier in our mind, than acknowledging what we are capable of.

Superman is someone that is hard to wrap one's minds around as always doing good. Like, I appreciate the idea, but that sense of perfectionism is one that is supremely offputting. I don't want Superman to do terrible things, but I want to know why he does what he does in terms of the not just being good, but what drives him to do so, be it his personal morals, or even his awareness that he could do terrible things.

I don't see it as cynical and hopelessness to explore these things. To the contrary, I think understanding the why of Superman is important for people like myself who don't understand the appeal of Superman and feel very much on the outside of the insistence that he must be good all the time.
 
Superman is someone that is hard to wrap one's minds around as always doing good. Like, I appreciate the idea, but that sense of perfectionism is one that is supremely offputting. I don't want Superman to do terrible things, but I want to know why he does what he does in terms of the not just being good, but what drives him to do so, be it his personal morals, or even his awareness that he could do terrible things.

Being good isn't about being incapable of doing bad, it's about choosing not to do bad. It's not perfectionism, it's just responsibility. Superman can't afford not to be in perfect control, because the consequences if he ever abandons control are too dire. Other people are like soap bubbles to him. He has to spend every waking moment making sure he doesn't hurt anyone. So caring for others is second nature to him because it has to be.


I don't see it as cynical and hopelessness to explore these things. To the contrary, I think understanding the why of Superman is important for people like myself who don't understand the appeal of Superman and feel very much on the outside of the insistence that he must be good all the time.

Whereas for me, his innate goodness is what makes him so meaningful. As a child, I was constantly bullied in school, victimized by people who were physically and emotionally stronger than I was. So fictional characters who used their power only to help and protect, never to harm, meant a great deal to me. They still do.

I mean, you don't have to be a flawless person to be committed to the simple idea of wanting to help people instead of hurting them. You just have to care.
 
Being good isn't about being incapable of doing bad, it's about choosing not to do bad. It's not perfectionism, it's just responsibility. Superman can't afford not to be in perfect control, because the consequences if he ever abandons control are too dire. Other people are like soap bubbles to him. He has to spend every waking moment making sure he doesn't hurt anyone. So caring for others is second nature to him because it has to be.
Which is fine but it's something I want to explore, to unpack. If this character means so much I want to understand the why of it.
Whereas for me, his innate goodness is what makes him so meaningful. As a child, I was constantly bullied in school, victimized by people who were physically and emotionally stronger than I was. So fictional characters who used their power only to help and protect, never to harm, meant a great deal to me. They still do.
I'm not looking for harm done. I'm looking for choice explained. Which might be a fools errand because I don't have the same experience as you in terms of finding Superman aspirational or someone I valued growing up. Didn't have constant bullying but was an outsider for most of my school life. But, comics were not my retreat. So that informs my POV substantially.

I mean, you don't have to be a flawless person to be committed to the simple idea of wanting to help people instead of hurting them. You just have to care.
Strange idea. I, as a mental health and helping professional, never understood that ;)
 
Probably because it is very human. On the one had, we avoid existential dread by distancing ourselves from others who do horrible things. "I would never do that" sounds much easier in our mind, than acknowledging what we are capable of.

Superman is someone that is hard to wrap one's minds around as always doing good. Like, I appreciate the idea, but that sense of perfectionism is one that is supremely offputting. I don't want Superman to do terrible things, but I want to know why he does what he does in terms of the not just being good, but what drives him to do so, be it his personal morals, or even his awareness that he could do terrible things.

I don't see it as cynical and hopelessness to explore these things. To the contrary, I think understanding the why of Superman is important for people like myself who don't understand the appeal of Superman and feel very much on the outside of the insistence that he must be good all the time.
Y'know, I appreciate your thoughtful perspective on this subject. It beats the hell out of the usual, "Positive characters are lame, because people are DARK and the world is DARK and everything is DARK and I'm so DARK." :rolleyes:

Contrary to what some believe, those of us who prefer a positive Superman don't want him to be a one-dimensional character, capable of no emotion other than happiness and no personality beyond the cardboard. It's not that Clark should never have internal conflicts, or experience pain or doubt. And in fact, I've seen vanishingly few depictions of the character that actually portray him as such.

Look, I know what humans are. I'm one myself. I'm not gaining anything from being shown we can be weak, or cruel, or corruptible. That's not news to me, or anyone.

But what I find valuable in the character of Superman is that he rises above those things. He suffers the same human failings and fears as we do, but he doesn't succumb to them -- certainly not to the extent of doing "terrible things." Instead, he insists on making the better choice, extending the compassionate hand, and challenging us to do the same.
 
Being good isn't about being incapable of doing bad, it's about choosing not to do bad. It's not perfectionism, it's just responsibility. Superman can't afford not to be in perfect control, because the consequences if he ever abandons control are too dire. Other people are like soap bubbles to him. He has to spend every waking moment making sure he doesn't hurt anyone. So caring for others is second nature to him because it has to be.

Regardless of whether or not Superman can afford to be in perfect control, it shouldn't be something that he is capable of doing. Because the ability to be in perfect control is something that no one is capable of doing. No one is that perfect. Including the Man of Steel. If someone had written him in that manner, the writer would be guilty of bad characterization.


But what I find valuable in the character of Superman is that he rises above those things. He suffers the same human failings and fears as we do, but he doesn't succumb to them -- certainly not to the extent of doing "terrible things." Instead, he insists on making the better choice, extending the compassionate hand, and challenging us to do the same.

"He suffers the same human failings and fears as we do, but he doesn't succumb to them"? Never? This would only make Superman seem like a trope to me, not a fully rounded character.
 
But what I find valuable in the character of Superman is that he rises above those things. He suffers the same human failings and fears as we do, but he doesn't succumb to them -- certainly not to the extent of doing "terrible things." Instead, he insists on making the better choice, extending the compassionate hand, and challenging us to do the same.
If you show me that story I'm all in. But Superman is good because Superman is always good is not what I want. I can get that elsewhere. Maybe I'm in the wrong place or just this whole thing isn't for me. Wouldn't be the first time with comics.

My biggest thing is that I can appreciate Superman so long as I don't get told "they're aspirational." As soon as they become aspirational then I am going to have a lot more questions as to the why of things, and what motivates and drives those characters. Because I believe strongly in the power of choice. I work with children who are told to "be good" but no one, not their parents, nor their teachers, ever told them what "being good" meant. No one showed them the way. So, they get role models who insist they be good, punish poor behavior, and expect them to learn without giving them choice and how to achieve it.

You give me Superman and tell me to achieve him then I sure as hell hope the story involves the how and the why of it. Otherwise, yeah, he's a trope character who is good for the sake of being good, and perfect because that's just who he is. Which basically makes him a god.
 
If you show me that story I'm all in. But Superman is good because Superman is always good is not what I want. I can get that elsewhere. Maybe I'm in the wrong place or just this whole thing isn't for me. Wouldn't be the first time with comics.

My biggest thing is that I can appreciate Superman so long as I don't get told "they're aspirational." As soon as they become aspirational then I am going to have a lot more questions as to the why of things, and what motivates and drives those characters. Because I believe strongly in the power of choice. I work with children who are told to "be good" but no one, not their parents, nor their teachers, ever told them what "being good" meant. No one showed them the way. So, they get role models who insist they be good, punish poor behavior, and expect them to learn without giving them choice and how to achieve it.

You give me Superman and tell me to achieve him then I sure as hell hope the story involves the how and the why of it. Otherwise, yeah, he's a trope character who is good for the sake of being good, and perfect because that's just who he is. Which basically makes him a god.
Well, most depictions of Clark show him as having had role models who very much "showed him the way," in the persons of Jonathan and Martha Kent. He didn't magically become the man he is, he learned to be that man through the love and guidance of his parents. It's a core component of his mythology, which is why you see objections when Jonathan and Martha are also rendered morally equivocal.

Perhaps you will next ask, then what made the Kents so good? I'm not sure what will satisfy you on this point, and maybe you can give me an idea. How specific a motivation do you feel a character must have to be a good person?

I do think Superman is aspirational, and should be. I think that's one of the things that defines him as a character. You seem to think such a character has no value, because you want something more concrete, more defined. But to me, fantasy has power. So do symbols, and ideas. Superman doesn't have to be "real." Real would diminish him.

I don't want a Superman with feet of clay. I want to believe a man can fly.
 
I don't see it as cynical and hopelessness to explore these things. To the contrary, I think understanding the why of Superman is important for people like myself who don't understand the appeal of Superman and feel very much on the outside of the insistence that he must be good all the time.

Wanting Superman to be "good" all the time is an unrealistic desire, as it divorces him (a character who consciously places himself in dangerous situations for the purpose of stopping something/one) from any relatable experience and behavior common to humanity. Of course, this kind of conversation in recent years stems from the overreaction to Man of Steel's Superman killing Zod, when the latter was mere seconds away from incinerating a family (yet in a contradictory position, have no issue with MCU Captain America--sold as the most moral, justice-minded of all superheroes--deliberately trying to kill the Red Skull, Thanos and in fact, slaughtered innumerable Hydra agents, and others).

As noted in the past, for those familiar with or lived through real world experience and/or read it in more realistic fiction, there were and will be situations where the most brutal and/or lethal action is the only action when there is no time for simply handcuffing someone, standing in their way or negotiating with a dangerous person.

From a creative standpoint, there's no drama if this one character never finds himself facing this all too common situation--where he conveniently has the luxury and choice to pluck someone up by the collar and float to the local prison. There's not an ounce of dramatic weight in a character always being "that guy". As created, Superman was once a mirror of the feelings of readers--particularly American readers--about crime, terror and other societal problems. He was not shy about being violent or lethal if the situation called for it, but we also know Superman would be severely watered down from that Great Depression warrior of his early years.

Ultimately, the perception of Superman as a Boy Scout is one of the many reasons Batman across all media ultimately surpassed Superman in popularity: he's the more relatable character. Batman was born from the worst kind of violence and knows its a neverending condition of humanity in one form or another, thus his reactions--his solutions ring as closer to what a reader / audience member feels and/or would do, rather than a character who lives in and sees the world in glowing, Disney-esque ways that never existed on any large, universal scale.

As a member of a population of a heroic fiction universe, where the very essence of the genre develops and includes threats beyond the capabilities of regular people to address, having a character act (or writers force him to act) as if the threats will always stop short of challenging his unsought, but occasionally necessary solutions renders the character as being the equivalent of someone represented on a coin: it may look like the person, but its a nothing more than a symbol--an idol in relief bearing no resemblance to the real person born with real heart & reactions.
 
Which is fine but it's something I want to explore, to unpack. If this character means so much I want to understand the why of it.

And I cannot understand why you seem to think that Superman stories haven't done that. Plenty of them have. Both the George Lowther origin from the '40s novel and radio series and the '50s TV series and the loose adaptation of it from Superman: The Movie posited that it was Clark's father's death that inspired him, along with his parents' exhortation that he had his powers for a reason and had an obligation to use them on behalf of others. He knew the pain of grief, and he knew he had the power to prevent others from suffering it. And he wanted to honor the memory of his parents by fulfilling their wish. Even the fairly simple Superman narratives of the Golden and Silver Ages established that relatable motivation for him, on top of the pain he carried at knowing he was the last survivor of his entire species, and that he couldn't truly be honest with Lois or anyone else about who he really was. He's never been as simplistic a character as his detractors falsely allege.



Look, I know what humans are. I'm one myself. I'm not gaining anything from being shown we can be weak, or cruel, or corruptible. That's not news to me, or anyone.

But what I find valuable in the character of Superman is that he rises above those things. He suffers the same human failings and fears as we do, but he doesn't succumb to them -- certainly not to the extent of doing "terrible things." Instead, he insists on making the better choice, extending the compassionate hand, and challenging us to do the same.

And the best part of that, he does that because of the example of his human parents. Because he was raised as a human and identifies with us. He symbolizes the immigrant experience -- a child of outsiders who grows up with a love of his new homeland and a desire to contribute to the place that gave him a home when he was a refugee. He sees the good in humans because of what we did for him. In Superman's mind, we're the heroes. We saved him. He just wants to return the favor.


If you show me that story I'm all in. But Superman is good because Superman is always good is not what I want.

The only thing you're arguing against here is the straw man you made up to give yourself something to argue against.


I do think Superman is aspirational, and should be. I think that's one of the things that defines him as a character. You seem to think such a character has no value, because you want something more concrete, more defined. But to me, fantasy has power. So do symbols, and ideas. Superman doesn't have to be "real." Real would diminish him.

I don't want a Superman with feet of clay. I want to believe a man can fly.

Yes. Some of us need hope. It doesn't matter that reality doesn't live up to ideals; the whole point of ideals is to give us something to work toward, even if we never fully achieve them.

More basically, what defines Superman is empathy. From the very beginning, he was the guy who stood up for the helpless and victimized, who would literally move mountains to help people in need and stop the people who were hurting them. Is it really so hard to understand liking a character who feels empathy for others? It's not about how "perfect" he is. It's not even about him. It's about how he feels toward others. There is appeal in telling stories about people who care about other people, and who will choose to stand up and help them.
 
And I cannot understand why you seem to think that Superman stories haven't done that.
Did I say that? Pretty sure I didn't say that. I was looking at it from a metatextual point of view, trying to grasp the sheer amount of importance put on to this character and his presentation.

A fool's errand, I suppose.

More basically, what defines Superman is empathy. From the very beginning, he was the guy who stood up for the helpless and victimized, who would literally move mountains to help people in need and stop the people who were hurting them. Is it really so hard to understand liking a character who feels empathy for others? It's not about how "perfect" he is. It's not even about him. It's about how he feels toward others. There is appeal in telling stories about people who care about other people, and who will choose to stand up and help them.
This makes more sense than any of the other arguments in this thread. Thank you.
 
For anyone who wants to know where Clark Kent came from, please spare ~3 minutes to let Annette O'Toole break your heart:

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For anyone who wants to know where Clark Kent came from, please spare ~3 minutes to let Annette O'Toole break your heart:

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I think that clip epitomizes what many feel when someone is hurting-I have to do something.

I appreciate you sharing the clip. It's clear that many find this character to be that important. When I see people say "He needs to be aspirational" I just want to see the Why. Show me the why. Don't assume I know the why from character pop culture history. Show me why. And each incarnation of Superman is different, which is why I welcome the challenge, that temptation to do wrong, to misuse the power, and the wrestle. Because that's human. If I am good for the sake of it it doesn't inspire the person next to me because they might not have that Why.

Show people the Why to be good and they'll follow. Tell them "Be like him" without it and it's devastatingly frustrating.

I should add that I like Superman in terms of being a good model. I just don't think him wrestling with darkness or dangerous ideas. I don't know. Maybe I'm not clear but I don't think it takes away from Superman to have him wrestle with temptation and truly think of doing harm. I don't think that's too dark, I don't think that's less aspirational, I think it shows he can make choices like we do and it works. Superheroes are great but to awaken the hero in all of us we need someone to say "Yeah, you can do this too, even if you're not Kryptonian."
 
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You and I have power over smaller and weaker beings. We have certain power over equals in a way.

Do people really wrestle with temptation to harm them? I'm seeing some messed up stuff here. Not hurting others is oddly easy.

Are there no good people in your lives? I'm genuinely feeling sad that there have been too many rough upbringings of people in this thread that they can't imagine someone doing good without having some wild external reason for it.
 
I think that clip epitomizes what many feel when someone is hurting-I have to do something.

I appreciate you sharing the clip. It's clear that many find this character to be that important. When I see people say "He needs to be aspirational" I just want to see the Why. Show me the why. Don't assume I know the why from character pop culture history. Show me why. And each incarnation of Superman is different, which is why I welcome the challenge, that temptation to do wrong, to misuse the power, and the wrestle. Because that's human. If I am good for the sake of it it doesn't inspire the person next to me because they might not have that Why.

Show people the Why to be good and they'll follow. Tell them "Be like him" without it and it's devastatingly frustrating.

I should add that I like Superman in terms of being a good model. I just don't think him wrestling with darkness or dangerous ideas. I don't know. Maybe I'm not clear but I don't think it takes away from Superman to have him wrestle with temptation and truly think of doing harm. I don't think that's too dark, I don't think that's less aspirational, I think it shows he can make choices like we do and it works. Superheroes are great but to awaken the hero in all of us we need someone to say "Yeah, you can do this too, even if you're not Kryptonian."
My point with the clip was about Jonathan and Martha. A man who chooses to trust someone he's never met, because, "I prefer to believe in people." And a woman whose reflexive response to his words is to think, "God, I hope he marries me."

You wanted to know why Clark is the way he is -- why he's good. You talked about role models and someone to show him the way. That's the role Jonathan and Martha traditionally fill in his story.

As for your addendum (I wrote most of this before you appended it), Superman has been explicitly shown in the comics being tempted to murder. I posted a page a while back where he darkly fantasized about killing Brainiac with his bare hands after the villain's actions resulted in Jonathan Kent's death. But fantasy is not reality, and temptation is not action, and there was zero chance he was actually going to succumb to that anger and pain. He felt it, but he didn't surrender to it. He's Clark Kent. He's Jonathan and Martha Kent's son. He's Superman.

I appreciate your willingness to interrogate this, but I'm honestly not sure if I have an answer that will satisfy you. I think, for whatever reason, you are much more skeptical of the idea, or the ideal, of goodness than I am. That's not intended as a slam against you, and if I'm wrong, I apologize. For me, a story about a fundamentally good person is an exclamation point, a "Eureka!" for what I want the world and myself to be. For you, it seems to be a question mark.
 
You and I have power over smaller and weaker beings. We have certain power over equals in a way.

Do people really wrestle with temptation to harm them? I'm seeing some messed up stuff here. Not hurting others is oddly easy.

Are there no good people in your lives? I'm genuinely feeling sad that there have been too many rough upbringings of people in this thread that they can't imagine someone doing good without having some wild external reason for it.

Hear, hear. Caring about others is the default. Humans are a social species. We evolved to use cooperation as our main survival strategy, and because our children are so helpless and grow so slowly compared to other animals, we had to evolve the instinct to love and protect them over the long haul. So empathy is intrinsic to our psychology. Our ability to relate to each other is key to what makes us human. Things like cruelty and malice are the result of damage, of trauma or abuse or behavioral disorders.

Although I think my own childhood traumas made me more empathetic, not less, because I identify with victims and don't wish pain on anyone. There was a time in college when my worst enemy (a former high school bully who never outgrew bullying me, and who sexually harassed my female friends) suffered a painful eye injury or infection, and I was surprised at myself that I felt no joy at his pain, that I actually felt compassion for the person I hated most. I didn't want to feel anything positive toward the jerk, but I was relieved to discover I didn't have the capacity to sink to his level. I've always felt the best revenge is to be a better person than your enemies.

So I just don't buy the premise that a character can only be a believable hero if they've barely overcome the temptation to be a villain -- or, in the case of Snyder's Superman, that he had to kill someone before he could know he didn't like killing. That's just not how most people are. Of course everyone wrestles with temptation; everyone can be selfish or insensitive or give into fear or make irresponsible choices. But that doesn't sink to the level of "darkness," of the temptation to do actual, deliberate harm to others.
 
I appreciate your willingness to interrogate this, but I'm honestly not sure if I have an answer that will satisfy you. I think, for whatever reason, you are much more skeptical of the idea, or the ideal, of goodness than I am
Probably not as much as you think. I could not do the job I do without believing in the fundamental ability of humans to do good. However, when say "He's Superman" that seems to carry a weight to it that I don't have with it. So I question it. It's what I do. I don't demand any measure of satisfaction because I know my belief in good people, and the hero in all of us without Superman. I don't require that by any measure.

More curious for me is what do you think? And why the push back so hard against darker aspects of a Superman story. I wrestle with this all the time because if fantasy is not reality (and Superman is a fantasy, at times a power one), and I think it helps me to see him as more human than alien to see that wrestling with it. Does he have to act on it? No. But, do the questions help with that existential debate? For me, yes.

Again, I'm not questioning the basis of Superman, so much as I am questioning the default acceptance of "Superman =good" to the point that "Superman=god." That's how it comes across. If I misunderstood I apologize. But this is far more of a fascinating insight in to the viewer's experience than my own. I know what I believe. I don't know what you believe.

Again, an existential debate that has no real end beyond curiosity on my part. Sorry if I am too introspective for my own good. :alienblush:

So I just don't buy the premise that a character can only be a believable hero if they've barely overcome the temptation to be a villain -- or, in the case of Snyder's Superman, that he had to kill someone before he could know he didn't like killing. That's just not how most people are. Of course everyone wrestles with temptation; everyone can be selfish or insensitive or give into fear or make irresponsible choices. But that doesn't sink to the level of "darkness," of the temptation to do actual, deliberate harm to others.
It's not a matter of "believable hero." It's a matter of presenting choice. Suppose I have made mistakes that have caused irredeemable harm to others, or that I struggle with that temptation and feel like it's never good enough. Or irresponsible in some way that causes harm. And then people go "Be like Superman" and I'm like "too late. Already messed it up."

The temptation wrestling is a huge part for me because it tells people it's ok to have a darkness as long as you don't let it consume you. Too many want that hero inside them to wake up but are told "Too late." And sometimes Superman feels just like that. "You're too late."
 
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Did I say that? Pretty sure I didn't say that. I was looking at it from a metatextual point of view, trying to grasp the sheer amount of importance put on to this character and his presentation.

A fool's errand, I suppose.

Possibly, if you are arguing against an idea (despite expected denials) of Superman being an unrealistic, utterly bleached personification of "good" incapable of making the same, hard decisions the residents of his adopted world will need to from time to time. In other words, he's sitting in the tower and cannot relate to, or truly be understood by real humans in touch with the nature of humanity, because he's been pasted together to be a god/father figure.
 
Probably not as much as you think. I could not do the job I do without believing in the fundamental ability of humans to do good. However, when say "He's Superman" that seems to carry a weight to it that I don't have with it. So I question it. It's what I do. I don't demand any measure of satisfaction because I know my belief in good people, and the hero in all of us without Superman. I don't require that by any measure.

It carries weight because Superman has been an iconic figure in heroic fiction since 1938. The entire category of "superhero" is essentially named after him. Why does the name Sherlock Holmes carry more weight than that of other detectives? Because he was the archetype and has been around long enough to have a really big cultural footprint.


More curious for me is what do you think? And why the push back so hard against darker aspects of a Superman story.

I don't think we're the ones pushing hard. We're just looking at the people who are pushing hard for Superman to be "dark" and violent and murderous and saying "No, that's not who he is, and he doesn't have to be forced into the same mold as characters like that."


I wrestle with this all the time because if fantasy is not reality (and Superman is a fantasy, at times a power one), and I think it helps me to see him as more human than alien to see that wrestling with it. Does he have to act on it? No. But, do the questions help with that existential debate? For me, yes.

Superman wrestles with doubt and loneliness in many stories. But that isn't the same thing as wrestling with the temptation to murder criminals or turn Earth into a fascist dystopia. And there have already been way, way too many stories about alternate-reality Supermen turning Earth into a fascist dystopia -- the '88 Superboy series, the DC Animated Universe (twice), the Elseworlds Superman: Red Son, the Injustice video game fanchise, the future visions in Batman V Superman. You talk as if Superman is never allowed to go dark, but it's actually a worn-out trope by this point.


Again, I'm not questioning the basis of Superman, so much as I am questioning the default acceptance of "Superman =good" to the point that "Superman=god." That's how it comes across. If I misunderstood I apologize.

I have no idea why you think that. Sure, it's been trendy ever since the Donner movie to put Christ symbolism into Superman movies, even though his creators were Jewish (and his origin story owes more to Moses, if anything). But Superman isn't a god. That's the thing that makes him work -- he has the power of a god, but the mindset of a Kansas farm boy. He's a superman, but he's also an everyman. When he's not out saving the world, he's just a guy hopelessly in love with his co-worker and wishing she'd notice him -- or, in modern versions, he's just a guy who successfully wins the love of his co-worker and becomes a husband and dad.

After all, Superman was created to be a character who stood up for the little guy, a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the powerless wishing they could stand up to the powerful. In the Superman story, as in a lot of superhero stories, there's a wish-fulfillment element to the idea of someone who's nerdy or unloved or unappreciated at work secretly being a glamorous and powerful hero in their other life.

Granted, there was a tendency in the Silver and Bronze Ages of comics to play up Superman's powers and his Kryptonian identity to the point that Clark Kent was little more than a facade. But since John Byrne's reboot in 1986, the normal way to portray him was summed up by a line in Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman: "Superman is what I can do. Clark is who I am."


It's not a matter of "believable hero." It's a matter of presenting choice. Suppose I have made mistakes that have caused irredeemable harm to others, or that I struggle with that temptation and feel like it's never good enough. Or irresponsible in some way that causes harm. And then people go "Be like Superman" and I'm like "too late. Already messed it up."

Superman has been allowed to make mistakes and have failures. In the classic 1950s origin story for Lex Luthor, he and Superboy were best friends in Smallville, until Superboy saved Lex from a lab accident in a way that destroyed a scientific breakthrough Lex had achieved, and also destroyed his hair follicles and left him permanently bald. So Lex blamed Superboy/man for ruining his life and became his worst enemy.
 
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