Kirk drift—misremembering a character…

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

PIKE: I said that's one place I might go. I might go into business on Regulus or on the Orion colony.
BOYCE: You, an Orion trader, dealing in green animal women, slaves?​

In the next line, Pike completely ignores Boyce's generalization of Orion colony business practices. He doesn't dignify that with a direct response.

PIKE: The point is this isn't the only life available. There's a whole galaxy of things to choose from.

There must be other businesses there. People need to eat, ship non-slave commodities, like raw materials, modular housing, agricultural supplies, foodstuffs.

Or perhaps Pike just picked "Orion colony" out of his hat, but Boyce reminds him that slaves are the primary business there, which he couldn't see Pike trading in, which Pike concurs with. It's Pike's way of saying, "Okay, bad example, but you know what I mean."

 

[MikHutch]

Oh for heaven's sake. TOS was written and aired in the 1960s, a time where there was still a good deal of misogyny.

One can't judge a show of 50 years ago by today's values. One can only be grateful that things have changed for the better.

For it's time, Trek was rather progressive. Many shows has females in what were then traditional roles - housewives, or pink collar professions. A woman on a Starship? Hell, we didn't even have a woman astronaut at the time!

So quit trying to explain away the 1960s writing. It was flawed. See the good in the show that was there, and just recognize that the bad was a product of its time.

I wince myself at the really chauvinistic stuff, but realize it was what it was.

Can we quit trying to act like the past is some precious thing beyond criticism? Because I'm beyond tired of that. We can judge the past and we should because not everyone back then liked it. Otherwise we'd never actually progress

I'd rather confront the past then hear people whine about how the present is too woke or whatever else such nonsense

 

[fireproof78]

Or perhaps Pike just picked "Orion colony" out of his hat, but Boyce reminds him that slaves are the primary business there, which he couldn't see Pike trading in, which Pike concurs with. It's Pike's way of saying, "Okay, bad example, but you know what I mean."

It's an interesting comment by Pike, and Boyce's challenging him on it is actually quite clever as it reveals that it isn't about the life he has, but a growing frustration. Pike just needed to let it out and manage it, rather than run from it.

For all my criticisms of the Cage, I do like Pike and I do think the episode is interesting, if of its time.

 

[Ssosmcin]

What I’m objecting to is the term “misogyny.” The definition of which is a “hatred and strong prejudice of woman.” Sexism is what Star Trek had, which isn’t good either, but not as bad. The only hatred toward woman seen in the series was “Wolf in the Fold” which was treated as an aberration. Kirk’s evil double’s rape fantasy in “The Enemy Within” could be seen as misogynistic, but, again, it wasn’t accepted. It was specifically treated as evil. Spock’s bad taste comment at the end notwithstanding.

It may be splitting hairs, but this is how stuff gets blown out of proportion and made into lore. Words matter, definitions matter.

 

[fireproof78]

I think women in slavery is hatred towards women.

Maybe I'm wrong. But I object strongly to slavery and especially how it's portrayed in The Cage.

 

[Ssosmcin]

"Dealing in Green animal women, slaves..."

"Slaves" could very well be general. No just women, but all genders. And outside of that one line (which is debatable), and the examples I mentioned, i can't find the hatred of woman.

 

[fireproof78]

"Dealing in Green animal women, slaves..."

"Slaves" could very well be general. No just women, but all genders. And outside of that one line (which is debatable), and the examples I mentioned, i can't find the hatred of woman.

Perhaps, though the presentation later on is not exactly positive either.

Regardless, I find it troubling at best. That Pike rejects it doesn't change it's place. It may be meant to be troubling but it stands out, especially with other episodes treating women as property. It's ugly.

 

[Ssosmcin]

There's also a big difference between referencing or showing misogynistic cultures or actions and the series "being misogynistic." None of the examples we've mentioned are shown to be admirable. Even Pike's illusion is populated by two pretty sleazy dudes.

 

[fireproof78]

There's also a big difference between referencing or showing misogynistic cultures or actions and the series "being misogynistic." None of the examples we've mentioned are shown to be admirable. Even Pike's illusion is populated by two pretty sleazy dudes.

I love how it's shifted from presentation to "it's admirable." It's not about admirability. It's about presentation.

 

[MikHutch]

I'm wondering if people here have different definitions of misogyny.

 

[Kor]

Regarding TWOK, I feel that perhaps it leaned a little too much into 'deconstructing' the larger-than-life perception of Kirk that had built up in people's minds since 1969; a perception that, as discussed here, involved some exaggeration. Oh, "risk is our business," so he's a careless risk-taker! Always flying by the seat of his pants and acting on intuition instead of going by the book. So let's have that blow up in his face when Reliant nearly destroys the ship. Oh, he's a ladies' man! So let's make him a deadbeat dad. Okay, we get it, our heroes have 'feet of clay.' No need to keep bonking us on the head with it.

Kor

 

[Ssosmcin]

I'm wondering if people here have different definitions of misogyny.

Misogyny is a stronger term than sexism. The "hatred and strong prejudice" part is what hits wrong. As far as this series is concerned, it's inaccurate. Sexism is more accurate, as the series treated a lot of women in a stereotypical fashion for the time. That is really my only point.

As far as slavery being accepted in The Cage, Boyce was pooh-poohing everything Pike suggested in order to make his point. Pike brings up going home and going riding and Boyce crabs about a picnic lunch being boring. Pike mentions going into business on Regulus or on the Orion Colonies and all Boyce does is being up the unsavory businesses. I’m sure, just like on Earth, there are much more positive avenues of employment. It’s like someone from Regulus telling someone expressing a desire to go into business on Earth only about insider trading and human trafficking.

Hey, it’s not my fault Star Trek never explores any side of the Orion's other than the criminal element…

 

[fireproof78]

Regarding TWOK, I feel that perhaps it leaned a little too much into 'deconstructing' the larger-than-life perception of Kirk that had built up in people's minds since 1969; a perception that, as discussed here, involved some exaggeration. Oh, "risk is our business," so he's a careless risk-taker! Always flying by the seat of his pants and acting on intuition instead of going by the book. So let's have that blow up in his face when Reliant nearly destroys the ship. Oh, he's a ladies' man! So let's make him a deadbeat dad. Okay, we get it, our heroes have 'feet of clay.' No need to keep bonking us on the head with it.

Kor

Except he wasn't. Carol asked him to stay away.

 

[Pauln6]

... what agency? She spends the entire episode either serving the Talosians or trying to seduce Pike. In the end, she refuses to return to human society because she believes she is too ugly. There is no agency. Whatever complexity she has is purely the result of Susan Oliver's performance and nowhere to be found in the text.



And the fact that the episode depicted sexual slavery as a tantalizing thing and asks the audience to find it titillating is misogynist. It would be one thing is the episode framed the idea as repulsive rather than tempting; but the narrative asks us to feel tempted along with Pike.



All this is very true. There's a lot of misogyny running through ST.

Again, I think that's too narrow a view of the character. She's not just ugly, she's also quite disabled, so for her it is a choice with pros and cons and she makes her choice. Vina isn't a passive puppet of the Talosians. She claims that they own her because she tried all Pike's tricks but couldn't sustain her resistance and yet she does have some agency too. She's tactical in her efforts to win over Pike and she has choices to make throughout the episode - the most important being to join her fellow humans in self-destruction. Her motivations have far more nuance than most female characters. It's not the same as Carolyn Palamas being ordered to do the right thing after throwing her colleagues under the bus.

With regards to misogyny, there are quite a few other Trek stories where women are bartered either willingly or reluctantly: Mudds Women, Elaan of Troyus, the Perfect Mate etc. You also have scenes such as in Enemy Within, Space Seed, and Who Mourns for Adonais where women secretly want a man to control them on some level. Then there's Rayna - oof. After hearing the details of the sexual assault that preceded Grace Lee Whitney leaving the show, it does look as though there was a mindset that reared its head repeatedly in the writing. The actresses were often far more accomplished than their futuristic counterparts (described by Grace as cute and not very bright). I've rather enjoyed the way that SNW has sneaked some light and shade into the Chapel character who was otherwise frustratingly passive as a character in TOS. It's also interesting that it's Number One, without referral to Pike who sets the phaser to overload in the Cage. That's very unusual for female character in TOS.

Kirk seems to like a woman who is a partner, capable of keeping him in check, challenging him intellectually but this is a double-edged sword since longer term they won't put up with a relationship on his terms. This is why he has a line in sassy exes. His attitude to other women is more varied. He will manipulate them, possibly even sacrifice them, to achieve his mission. He could be quite calculating. Just watched TMP yesterday and Shatner's performance was brilliantly nuanced as he shoe-horns his way back into command and re-finds his mojo.

 

[Sci]

Again, I think that's too narrow a view of the character. She's not just ugly, she's also quite disabled,

The idea that a character who isn't passive and lacking in agency would decide it's better to abandon her family, friends, and society to live as, at best, a subordinate of the Talosians is pretty hard to swallow.

Vina isn't a passive puppet of the Talosians. She claims that they own her because she tried all Pike's tricks but couldn't sustain her resistance

The opening clause of your second sentence immediately invalidates the first sentence.

Her motivations have far more nuance than most female characters.

My initial response here was harsher, but suffice it to say that if you mean to compare Vina to other female characters throughout narrative fiction, then I just don't even know how to respond. If you're comparing her to other female TOS characters... I think that's damning her with faint praise.

With regards to misogyny, there are quite a few other Trek stories where women are bartered either willingly or reluctantly: Mudds Women, Elaan of Troyus, the Perfect Mate etc. You also have scenes such as in Enemy Within, Space Seed, and Who Mourns for Adonais where women secretly want a man to control them on some level. Then there's Rayna - oof. After hearing the details of the sexual assault that preceded Grace Lee Whitney leaving the show, it does look as though there was a mindset that reared its head repeatedly in the writing. The actresses were often far more accomplished than their futuristic counterparts (described by Grace as cute and not very bright).

Yep. I love TOS, but there's a streak of misogyny that runs through the whole thing and we should be able and willing to recognize that.

 

[Warped9]

In “The Cage” there is no mention of the Federation (given it hadn’t been invented yet). There is also nothing to establish the Orion colonies are also Earth colonies, although it’s not impossible. Humans could have established deep space colonies that didn’t necessarily follow the conventions established back on Earth.

So the Orion colonies are either alien worlds where slavery is an established part of their society or they’re worlds (or world) where a human society has regressed to re-embrace slavery.

We simply don’t have enough information. And as mentioned upthread green slave women might be the most notorious aspect known of the Orion colonies, but certainly not the only thing that goes on there. Given what we learn when the idea of the Federation is introduced into TOS it’s highly unlikely, but not impossible, the UFP would have members where slavery was an accepted norm. Much more likely such worlds would be alien cultures and not actual members of the Federation.

 

[Pauln6]

The idea that a character who isn't passive and lacking in agency would decide it's better to abandon her family, friends, and society to live as, at best, a subordinate of the Talosians is pretty hard to swallow.



The opening clause of your second sentence immediately invalidates the first sentence.



My initial response here was harsher, but suffice it to say that if you mean to compare Vina to other female characters throughout narrative fiction, then I just don't even know how to respond. If you're comparing her to other female TOS characters... I think that's damning her with faint praise.



Yep. I love TOS, but there's a streak of misogyny that runs through the whole thing and we should be able and willing to recognize that.

Yeah I was referring to other TOS female characters! I have a soft spot for Miranda Jones because of the way she tolerates all the male bullshit that comes her way. I remember being quite shocked at the accusations Kirk hurled at her (another example of him manipulating people for the mission). She was meant to be a psychologist and a telepath and she couldn't see through that? Another example of them setting up a female character's qualifications and then not using them. That said, the more nebulous nature of her telepathic abilities made her the most interesting psychic character in Trek. In the end, she was able to say no thank you to fawning human men and do her job but we still have all that Kirk dialogue impugning her motives. Kirk taking the credit for giving her a kick up the backside.

 

[MikHutch]

Regarding TWOK, I feel that perhaps it leaned a little too much into 'deconstructing' the larger-than-life perception of Kirk that had built up in people's minds since 1969; a perception that, as discussed here, involved some exaggeration. Oh, "risk is our business," so he's a careless risk-taker! Always flying by the seat of his pants and acting on intuition instead of going by the book. So let's have that blow up in his face when Reliant nearly destroys the ship. Oh, he's a ladies' man! So let's make him a deadbeat dad. Okay, we get it, our heroes have 'feet of clay.' No need to keep bonking us on the head with it.

Kor

I hadn't thought of it like that

Misogyny is a stronger term than sexism. The "hatred and strong prejudice" part is what hits wrong. As far as this series is concerned, it's inaccurate. Sexism is more accurate, as the series treated a lot of women in a stereotypical fashion for the time. That is really my only point.

I think misogyny and sexism tend to go hand in hand because misogyny is often the source of anti female sexist stereotypes like what would appear in shows back then

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Or perhaps Pike just picked "Orion colony" out of his hat, but Boyce reminds him that slaves are the primary business there, which he couldn't see Pike trading in, which Pike concurs with. It's Pike's way of saying, "Okay, bad example, but you know what I mean."

That's arguable.

However, the idea that Pike isn't actually tempted in any way by it is undermined in "The Menagerie" by Kirk's voiceover during the illusion with Vina as the Orion dancer, about Pike "beginning to weaken," that I quoted upthread, wherein Kirk also characterizes each form of Vina's as "more exciting than the last."

 

[Poltargyst]

There was dialog regarding the Orion slave girl in "The Menagerie" that is textbook misogynism.

The dialog from "The Menagerie" [http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/16b.htm]: "They're like animals, vicious, seductive."

And, quoting right from the link you provided, with the relevant part boldfaced:

Misogyny is a blatant disregard for women; while someone who is sexist may still be opposed to the fact that women make 78 cents to the dollar, a misogynist will believe that women don’t deserve equal pay because they are inherently lesser than men.​

Saying that a woman is like an animal is saying that she is inherently lesser than a man. QED.

Boom. Negator. There was misogyny in TOS.

Countdown to "but they weren't talking about human women" in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1... .

Think about your sexual fantasies. Imagine them broadcast on tv for all to see. Would any of them come across as socially unacceptable? Should you be judged by that?

If a male character is described as vicious like an animal, is that misanthropy or is it just describing that particular kind of character?

That's arguable.

However, the idea that Pike isn't actually tempted in any way by it is undermined in "The Menagerie" by Kirk's voiceover during the illusion with Vina as the Orion dancer, about Pike "beginning to weaken," that I quoted upthread, wherein Kirk also characterizes each form of Vina's as "more exciting than the last."

I think it's clear that our man Chris has the hots for Orion women, and he may have sexual fantasies about having them serve him as slaves, but I'm not sure if he should be judged by his sexual fantasies. I'm sure a lot of people have sexual fantasies that would be considered unsavory if they were known by the general public. The question is if Pike would actually do it. If Pike actually had the chance to own Orion slaves, would he? I doubt it, but YMMV.