What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[Commander Troi]

The story of the Gorn being thoughtful, having their own point-of-view, and taking actions that can be understandable. As Kirk came to realize at the end of "Arena" and thus the reason why the Metrons chose to spare him.

But there's nothing in the episode to indicate the Gorn have any of that (except their own POV, which every even vaguely sentient critter has). Kirk gives the benefit of the doubt to a being he knows bupkis about. And then he shows mercy. *That's* what impressed the Metron. The two don't necessarily follow each other - Kirk could've thought "might've had their reasons" and still chose to kill the Gorn. It was his choice not to kill a helpless enemy - an enemy the Metron says would've killed him.

Once more:
METRON: By sparing your helpless enemy who surely would have destroyed you, you demonstrated the advanced trait of mercy, something we hardly expected.

Kirk's epiphany is still in the future. So is the potential for peace that Spock and McCoy implied might be possible through diplomacy. We're still in the part of the story where the Gorn are monsters.

THANK YOU! Yes, this.

Now, the problem with Kirk not having heard of the Gorn in "Arena"? Honestly, I'm putting that with "Vulcania" and "no women starship captains" in the Things I'm Ignoring In TOS box.

 

[Lord Garth]

What’s wrong with you, man? You know such nuance is not allowed in the hallowed halls of Trekdom.

I think it's probably more this way IRL, with people here in general, than what's coming across on the board. At least that's what I suspect. If someone likes 99 things out of 100, suddenly we're talking about the 1 other thing because that's where the discussion is, so it gives a distorted view of someone's, anyone's, overall opinion.

 

[Ovation]

Controversial opinion: SNW main theme (opening and closing credits) is my favourite of all. Only one I don’t skip.

 

[Farscape One]

One thing to consider... maybe the reason why Kirk never heard of the Gorn was because information on them was classified.

And the Gorn was name dropped before the Metrons allowed the Enterprise to see what was going on. So Spock wouldn't have known, since the ship was an unknown configuration.

 

[Shawnster]

PIC Season 3 is the best season of PIC. It's not even the best Star Trek since 2017 much less 2005.

This statement seems contradictory. Like there is one word too many or one word too few.

Wait, maybe I understand. PIC season 3 is the best PIC, but still doesn't compare with anything since 2005. Is that it? Sorry, I has the dumb.

One thing to consider... maybe the reason why Kirk never heard of the Gorn was because information on them was classified.

And the Gorn was name dropped before the Metrons allowed the Enterprise to see what was going on. So Spock wouldn't have known, since the ship was an unknown configuration.

Everyone seems pretty much aware of the Gorn and what their ships look like in "Memento Mori". It's clear this is not their first encounter. La'an even encountered the Gorn as a teen/young adult.

I'm sure there are at least maps noting Gorn encounters. I'm also sure specs and diagrams of Gorn ships are in the database.

I can see a specific encounter being classified, but it's clear Gorn are enough of a known factor that Kirk would know he's fighting a Gorn, that the Gorn attacked Cestus III, and that he was pursuing a Gorn ship. The Gorn weren't secret or unknown.

Yet "Arena" clearly depicts a first contact situation.

 

[Farscape One]

This statement seems contradictory. Like there is one word too many or one word too few.



Everyone seems pretty much aware of the Gorn and what their ships look like "Memento Mori". It's clear this is not their first encounter. La'an even encountered the Gorn as a teen/young adult.

I'm sure there are at least maps noting Gorn encounters. I'm also sure specs and diagrams of Gorn ships are in the database.

I can see a specific encounter being classified, but it's clear Gorn are enough of a known factor that Kirk would know he's fighting a Gorn, that the Gorn attacked Cestus III, and that he was pursuing a Gorn ship. The Gorn weren't secret or unknown.

Yet Arena clearly depicts a first contact situation.

All fair points about the Gorn. However, maybe the ship in "ARENA" was a new class of Gorn ship not encountered, or may have altered their ship enough to not be recognizable as Gorn.


Regarding the statement cooleddie74 made about PIC season 3...

I actually agree with it and it makes sense. From my perspective, PIC season 3 is definitely the best season of that series, but it is not the best season of the franchise since 2005. I would give that honor to SNW or PRODIGY season 1 or LD season 3.

 

[fireproof78]

Yet "Arena" clearly depicts a first contact situation.

I never felt it was clear.

 

[Oddish]

Here's some controversy... in terms of bad/unrealistic ranking up, TNG is about the worst series of the classic era.

TOS - Zero characters. Because it was so short, it didn't really have time or need to promote any character, but they all ranked up in the movie era.
DS9 - Zero characters. Everyone was promoted appropriately. Including Kira, who went from Major (LCDR equivalent) to Colonel (CDR equivalent, given her Starfleet commission). Worf didn't rank up, but he had just made LCDR on the Enterprise, so he wasn't due.
VOY - One character. Obviously, Harry got severely shafted... but he was the only one. Tom and Tuvok ranked up, B'Elanna and Chakotay were provisional, the Doctor was a computer program, and the others weren't Starfleet.
ENT - Two characters. I'm choosing to assume that Riker's holosimulation was using outdated footage and characters, given that no one had aged. So, we go by the four years the series took place over. Both Mayweather and Sato should have made lieutenant, and didn't. Everyone else was LT or above, and Starfleet at the time had no "half-stripe" ranks, so it's reasonable that no one else did.

TNG - Four characters.
1. Riker and Picard turning down promotion is all right... a person can voluntarily derail their career if they choose. But Riker got mysteriously retconned from age 34 in "Encounter at Fairpoint" (which was fine) to 29, meaning he was offered a captain post after 7 years in Starfleet. A bit early, I think.
2. Data was a LCDR at the start of TNG. After 15 years and saving the Federation from the Borg and the Romulans... still a LCDR.
3. Geordi was a full lieutenant for only a year. In the wet navy, the norm is five.
4. Deanna effectively failed the bridge officer's test. It was a test of an officer's mettle, their willingness to do the unthinkable for the greater good. Only in her case, it was treated as a puzzle to be solved.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Ethan Peck is the best Spock.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Ethan Peck with a beard, is the best Spock.

FTFY.

 

[cooleddie74]

Nimoy is still my favorite Spock by far but Ethan Peck is now firmly ensconced far ahead of Zachary Quinto - and I genuinely like Quinto's alternate timeline take on Spock.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Yet "Arena" clearly depicts a first contact situation.

"Clearly," no. "Possibly," yes.

As I understand it, the meat of the argument that it is a first-contact situation appears to rest on two lines, boldfaced [http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/19.htm]:

KIRK: Any identification on the attacking vessel?
SULU [OC]: No, sir. Doesn't correspond with any configuration we're familiar with.

[...]

KIRK [OC]: The Enterprise is dead in space, stopped cold during her pursuit of an alien raider by mysterious forces, and I have been somehow whisked off the bridge and placed on the surface of an asteroid, facing the Captain of the alien ship. Weaponless, I face the creature the Metrons called a Gorn. Large, reptilian. Like most humans, I seem to have an instinctive revulsion to reptiles. I must fight to remember that this is an intelligent, highly advanced individual, the Captain of a starship, like myself, undoubtedly a dangerously clever opponent.​

On the other hand, we have these lines from the person rescued from Cestus III:

MAN: Scanners reported a ship approaching. We get them now and then. They're all welcome to use our facilities. You know that.​

The second to last sentence could be read such that Cestus III had received Gorn visitors before.

Why the ship does not correspond to any known design is easy to explain away: one idea is that it's a new type of attack craft, kept secret until the engagement.

As to why Kirk doesn't recognize a Gorn, several theories have been put forth by posters (apologies that I'm not giving credit where credit may be due).

1. There are distinct stages in the life cycle of the Gorn species, and not all had been observed.

2. There's wide enough variation among the individuals in the Gorn species so as to make it questionable in some cases on a cursory inspection whether one is indeed looking at a Gorn.

3. There are multiple species making up the Gorn hegenomy.

4. Starfleet had classified earlier encounters with the Gorn.​

I'm reasonably certain that there are other viable theories as well. Perhaps this season we'll have better ideas regarding all of this.

 

[Oddish]

Ethan Peck is the best Spock.

I think I saw some TNG Trekkies cruise by with a smoking bucket of tar and a sack of feathers... should I be worried?

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

MAN: Scanners reported a ship approaching. We get them now and then. They're all welcome to use our facilities. You know that.
The second to last sentence could be read such that Cestus III had received Gorn visitors before.

Or rather that anyone who comes in peace is welcome to visit, previously known or not.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Or rather that anyone who comes in peace is welcome to visit, previously known or not.

Yes, that is also an interpretation. I said it could be read a certain way, not that it had to be read that way.

 

[Shawnster]

Why the ship does not correspond to any known design is easy to explain away: one idea is that it's a new type of attack craft, kept secret until the engagement.

I could accept this if it was consistent with the rest of Star Trek produced regardless of series.

Federation ships all look like Federation ships. Heck, the NX-01 Dauntless was immediately recognized as such. Cardassians all look like Cardassians, Klingons look like Klingons, etc... We have 1 instance where Scotty mistook a Romulan ship as Klingon, but that was quickly clarified with a Starfleet intelligence report.

Warp signatures, weapons signatures, transporter signatures, construction materials, all seem to be thumbprints for each specific political entity.

Sensors in TOS can differentiate a Vulcan from a Romulan. One quick bioscan and McCoy knows an apparentl human is a surgically altered Klingon.

So, I'm expected to believe that the Enterprise sensors (nor Spock's tricorder) could not detect Gorn lifesigns during the battle on and in orbit of Cestus III, could not determine construction details of the Gorn ship, could not distinguish it's unique warp signature or transporter signature or weapons signature, that the Enterprise maps had no notations that Gorn were anywhere in the general vicinity, and that Starfleet Intelligence dropped the ball on keeping up with data on a known hostile?

All this does not even factor in future Gorn appearances on SNW or other canon productions. Who knows what the future holds?

 

[fireproof78]

Sensors in TOS can differentiate a Vulcan from a Romulan. One quick bioscan and McCoy knows an apparentl human is a surgically altered Klingon.

Yet he never had a physical before McCoy? As an official's aid? O_o

So, I'm expected to believe that the Enterprise sensors could not detect Gorn lifesigns during the battle on and in orbit of Cestus III, could not determine construction details of the Gorn ship, could not distinguish it's unique warp signature or transporter signature or weapons signature, that the Enterprise maps had no notations that Gorn were anywhere in the general vicinity, and that Starfleet Intelligence dropped the ball on keeping up with data on a known hostile?

That's pretty much how drama works in Star Trek is that someone, unfortunately, drops the ball. Ceti Alpha 6 exploding would be a big ing deal and visible from multiple places inside the Federation. Ships movements and life signs would also be easily trackable, yet many times our heroes are surprised when someone shows up unannounced.

It, sadly, falls under the rule of drama.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

It's nothing on Nimoy or Quinto, who are both great Spocks. There are no bad Spocks. It's just right now, Ethan Peck is Spock. I love his take.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I could accept this if it was consistent with the rest of Star Trek produced regardless of series.

Federation ships all look like Federation ships. Heck, the NX-01 Dauntless was immediately recognized as such. Cardassians all look like Cardassians, Klingons look like Klingons, etc... We have 1 instance where Scotty mistook a Romulan ship as Klingon, but that was quickly clarified with a Starfleet intelligence report.

Warp signatures, weapons signatures, transporter signatures, construction materials, all seem to be thumbprints for each specific political entity.

Sensors in TOS can differentiate a Vulcan from a Romulan. One quick bioscan and McCoy knows an apparentl human is a surgically altered Klingon.

So, I'm expected to believe that the Enterprise sensors (nor Spock's tricorder) could not detect Gorn lifesigns during the battle on and in orbit of Cestus III, could not determine construction details of the Gorn ship, could not distinguish it's unique warp signature or transporter signature or weapons signature, that the Enterprise maps had no notations that Gorn were anywhere in the general vicinity, and that Starfleet Intelligence dropped the ball on keeping up with data on a known hostile?

All this does not even factor in future Gorn appearances on SNW or other canon productions. Who knows what the future holds?

You provided an explanation to resolve your own conundrum. What if, for the Cestus III attack, the Gorn used a ship design obtained from an alien species?

Two possible explanations have already been given for their inability to recognize the Gorn, either on sight or by scan: this is a part of the Gorn life cycle that's never been seen before or this is an alien species that's never been seen before but that is part of the Gorn hegemony.

I've no idea whether how the writers of SNW will address any of this.

Anyway, to the original point. The regular way to read "Arena" is that it is a first-contact situation. But it's not unambiguous, and you don't need to look outside of the episode itself to read it reasonably another way.

 

[Macintosh]

I thought Zachary Quinto did quite well with poor material. I think Ethan Peck is doing less well with better material. In particular I don't like that he's being used so frequently for comic relief. Spock always had a dignity in TOS and the movies that seems to be missing here. I've just never been able to see the DIS/SNW Spock as the same character as Leonard Nimoy. He's the only main character in SNW I haven't warmed to yet.