Non Sequitur is such a good episode

[Guy Gardener]

It's very unlikely that Harry returned to exactly his own time stream, even if the differences from his home and where he wound up, was imperceptible.

Either moving forward from this episode, we had a fake Harry trying to fool us, on "our" ship, or we were fooled into following a different Voyager crew, because "our" Harry cocked it up, for us.

 

[Oddish]

It's very unlikely that Harry returned to exactly his own time stream, even if the differences from his home and where he wound up, was imperceptible.

Either moving forward from this episode, we had a fake Harry trying to fool us, on "our" ship, or we were fooled into following a different Voyager crew, because "our" Harry cocked it up, for us.

I like how you think.

 

[gweeps]

It's very unlikely that Harry returned to exactly his own time stream, even if the differences from his home and where he wound up, was imperceptible.

Either moving forward from this episode, we had a fake Harry trying to fool us, on "our" ship, or we were fooled into following a different Voyager crew, because "our" Harry cocked it up, for us.

And then along came Deadlock to confuse us even more...

 

[Oddish]

If you tried to make a temporal diagram of Voyager's journey, it would be enough to make the sanest man go mad.

 

[gweeps]

If you tried to make a temporal diagram of Voyager's journey, it would be enough to make the sanest man go mad.

Poor Braxton.

 

[Oddish]

Poor Braxton.

They probably saw the evidence he presented at his trial and let him off with a light slap on the wrist.

 

[somebuddyX]

I remember not being that impressed with this episode but I haven't seen it since 1995/1996 so maybe it's better than I remember. Partly I was petty about the reuse of the dyson sphere doors as spacedock and the runabout just being the same as the ones on DS9. Also Voyager style transporter beams on Earth. Yes I was petty.
I just think Harry had a bit of survivor's guilt in that he'd kind of lucked in where Danny Byrd had been, and also felt responsible for Tom's fate. I wondered in the past whether they should have made it more weighted to make his decision easier, like Byrd had a newborn or something, but sometimes it's just not that easy. I can't remember how Kim talks to Libby about this or whether he says goodbye but that should weigh heavily. I guess I'll watch it again one day and find out.

 

[Oddish]

I just think Harry had a bit of survivor's guilt in that he'd kind of lucked in where Danny Byrd had been, and also felt responsible for Tom's fate.

That is undoubtedly so. Otherwise, why trade security for uncertainty, love for loneliness, advancement for ruination, and Vulcan mocha for Neelix's coffee substitute? I think this goes beyond survivor's guilt to the level of martyr complex, and were she onboard, I would suggest that Harry discuss it with Counselor Troi.

I can't remember how Kim talks to Libby about this or whether he says goodbye but that should weigh heavily. I guess I'll watch it again one day and find out.

Seeing how appallingly Harry's actions were paid back over the next five years, you see the episode in a different light.

 

[somebuddyX]

I think this goes beyond survivor's guilt to the level of martyr complex, and were she onboard, I would suggest that Harry discuss it with Counselor Troi.

I like this a lot. Kim is basically a kid thinking he has to sacrifice himself for the greater good makes a lot of sense.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I like this a lot. Kim is basically a kid thinking he has to sacrifice himself for the greater good makes a lot of sense.

Not the greater good.

Daniel Byrd.

One dude was lost in space who was not supposed to be lost in space, and Kim took on that weight.

Even if Byrd was better at the Ops job than Kim, something we should have had verification on, who had the better grades at the academy. Okay, reference sites say that Harry was the Valedictorian and Daniel was not, at the Academy. Actually if Daniel was was in a Different year, he could have also been Valedictorian... but more probably not.

If Kim had the best grades... And a tiger mom, why the fuck was he posted to a black ops ship, who's mission was to to silently kill political dissenters? A ship the Romulans warned Starfleet would be lost on it's maiden Voyager two decades earlier.

Oh.

He was an expert on the Maquis. Editor of the paper, interviewing both sides.

A mission specialist.

 

[Oddish]

And as a Maquis sympathizer, a severe threat. Maybe Janeway was under secret orders to arrange an "accident" for him. And failing that, to neutralize him by ruining his Starfleet career through non-promotion and undeserved reprimand. Because she needed his skills, she chose the latter. And when Voyager gets home, Harry starts his new job on the USS Emeticus, a Federation garbage scow.

 

[ReddishAlert]

One of my favorite episodes of Voyager.

Just wish we had seen Daniel Byrd later. Like “thank heaven Danny Byrd invented the Midas array here on earth or we wouldn’t be able to speak to you now!” ;-)

I liked that Harry, the most eager of all to go home, had such loyalty to his crew. The Harry and Tom stuff is gold too.

 

[Farscape One]

Looking back, the episode is better than the first couple times you watch.

While I agree Harry should have had a bit more of an internal struggle about staying, at least at first, I can see why he doesn't for a few reasons.

First, as others have pointed out, a form of survivors' guilt. Which is precisely what drove him in "TIMELESS", so it's definitely a character trait.

Second, Tom Paris and Danny Byrd... obviously, he didn't want them to suffer just so he got a better life.

Third, while he was posted on Earth at that time, as a Starfleet officer (and especially after rising the ranks), he'll almost certainly be at some be on a starship or starbase or other assignment that can lead to just as much danger as what he had happen to him on Voyager.

Fourth, at the time this occured, Voyager had been lost for only 8 months. He still had only died once, just got praise from Janeway (from "TWISTED") and didn't think he'd be stuck at ensign for 7 years, hadn't had any failed romances yet, and was still young and naive enough to think and truly believe he would get back soon.

Now, if this episode happened later in the series, the episode's outcome might be different. Or at the very least, he'd think a little bit harder about getting back.

 

[Oddish]

First, as others have pointed out, a form of survivors' guilt. Which is precisely what drove him in "TIMELESS", so it's definitely a character trait.

And maybe the only one he has. We see it again in "Nightingale", when he loses someone under his command.

Second, Tom Paris and Danny Byrd... obviously, he didn't want them to suffer just so he got a better life.

True about Bryd, but Tom was on Earth and not in constant danger. So it's a bit more of a toss up with him.

Third, while he was posted on Earth at that time, as a Starfleet officer (and especially after rising the ranks), he'll almost certainly be at some be on a starship or starbase or other assignment that can lead to just as much danger as what he had happen to him on Voyager.

Maybe... but remember, Voyager was one ship against an entire quadrant. The odds of her getting home were remote at best. Harry had to know that on some level.

Fourth, at the time this occured, Voyager had been lost for only 8 months. He still had only died once, just got praise from Janeway (from "TWISTED") and didn't think he'd be stuck at ensign for 7 years...

It's hard to say... basically, what happened here was a vendetta against the actor, carried out by showrunners of dubious competence. It did not follow the rules that had been set by the previous three series and also Voyager itself, i.e. that crew could be promoted without changing jobs. But it still happened and it was defended in canon, so we really have no way of knowing whether Harry expected a rank boost or not.

Now, if this episode happened later in the series, the episode's outcome might be different. Or at the very least, he'd think a little bit harder

Remember, there was a totally legitimate reason for Harry to just accept the new status quo, and it had nothing to do with improvements in his life or problems in Byrd's and Paris's... he was given the following warning...

"Well, you may be able to change reality again, but there's no way to predict how it would change. You could end up at any point in the space-time continuum. You might return to your original reality, or you might find yourself a billion years in the future. Or at some time before sentient life even existed on your planet."

Given that there was a good change his attempt to change things back would fail, I can seriously see him having strong second thoughts.

 

[Farscape One]

And maybe the only one he has. We see it again in "Nightingale", when he loses someone under his command.



True about Bryd, but Tom was on Earth and not in constant danger. So it's a bit more of a toss up with him.



Maybe... but remember, Voyager was one ship against an entire quadrant. The odds of her getting home were remote at best. Harry had to know that on some level.



It's hard to say... basically, what happened here was a vendetta against the actor, carried out by showrunners of dubious competence. It did not follow the rules that had been set by the previous three series and also Voyager itself, i.e. that crew could be promoted without changing jobs. But it still happened and it was defended in canon, so we really have no way of knowing whether Harry expected a rank boost or not.



Remember, there was a totally legitimate reason for Harry to just accept the new status quo, and it had nothing to do with improvements in his life or problems in Byrd's and Paris's... he was given the following warning...

"Well, you may be able to change reality again, but there's no way to predict how it would change. You could end up at any point in the space-time continuum. You might return to your original reality, or you might find yourself a billion years in the future. Or at some time before sentient life even existed on your planet."

Given that there was a good change his attempt to change things back would fail, I can seriously see him having strong second thoughts.

I agree about your point on the warning he was given. That definitely should have merited second thoughts.

I still stand by my point about Tom, though. His life was not in danger on Earth, but he did end up a loser in pretty much every other way. A drunk, no direction, bitter, self-destructive... he could very well have ended up in a fatal bar brawl. He almost certainly wouldn't have ended up a responsible, married man with a baby. It'd be hard to stand by and see your best friend end up like that when you can do something about it.

 

[Oddish]

I still stand by my point about Tom, though. His life was not in danger on Earth, but he did end up a loser in pretty much every other way. A drunk, no direction, bitter, self-destructive... he could very well have ended up in a fatal bar brawl.

Yeah... I think Nick Lacarno probably ended up similarly. Even if he didn't die in a bar brawl, maybe getting hit by a bus or falling down stairs or dying in a fire you set while drunk. Lots of ways to off yourself when you're smashed.

Maybe sometimes, in that timeline anyway, Tom and Nick would come into Sandrine's and get drunk together.

It'd be hard to stand by and see your best friend end up like that when you can do something about it.

Very true. Not saying Harry's actions were wrong per se, just that he should have given them more thought.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I like this a lot. Kim is basically a kid thinking he has to sacrifice himself for the greater good makes a lot of sense.

The greater good would have been being a father to that baby he made in the teaser.

 

[Ragitsu]

What happened to user "IAmAParrot"?

 

[Oddish]

What happened to user "IAmAParrot"?

He had a difference of opinion with the TrekBBS leadership.

 

[Ragitsu]

What?