The Wrath of Khan vs The Undiscovered Country

[JonnyQuest037]

The Klingon answer is good but the Romulan ambassador is a no way! Even if relations had softened between the two powers I doubt that the Federation would ever trust the Romulans in that capacity!

Well, obviously they did, because the movie shows us that they did.

 

[johnnybear]

Well it's one thing they got wrong then, Jonny! They were enemies in TOS and even later on in TNG!
JB

 

[Captain Zog]

I love both but prefer The Wrath of Khan. I love everything about it - the new uniforms, the subdued and oftentimes sombre tone, the mature themes, the visuals, the soundtrack and the stellar final act.

The Undiscovered Country is a close second but it doesn't quite hit all the spots that The Wrath of Khan does and I'm not quite as keen on the soundtrack.

 

[fireproof78]

could never understand why the President of the UFoP allowed the Romulan ambassador into their high military meetings? Since when did the Romulans become the friends to the Federation and even if they did why allow him into their conference?

Who said it was friendly? They have a mutual interest in seeing the conference go forward.

 

[publiusr]

I sometimes wonder what Styles and Excelsior might have done had they been sent after Khan.

“We finally have Kirk riding a desk again.”

“He’s going out on Enterprise.”

“Ah…he’ll tool around in a circle with those trainees…what could go wrong? Just make sure there is never a full complement on that ship ever again.”

A century later, they still can’t let him rest—so they put him in deep freeze:

“If only Styles had met Khan first. Reliant would have been quick work—“

“-and he’d been in the cooler…not us.”

Another great “what if” would be Enterprise falling to Kruge and Saavik and David the new stars. Phase II—aboard the Grissom.

 

[Gary Bitchell]

TWOK is, for me, the best written. It's the one I can drop everything and watch no matter what. It moved the characters forward and gave Kirk better character growth than the spoiled baby he was in TMP.

TUC is a decent film and a proper sendoff of the main TOS cast. But it's significantly less amazing to me than any of the movies in the Spock Space Jesus trilogy.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

I voted TUC, but I do love TWOK.

I was a bit too young to catch TWOK in the cinema, but I have strong memories of watching TUC on the big screen with my mom as a kid. So it has the nostalgia factor.

I think both are great movies though.

Well it's one thing they got wrong then, Jonny! They were enemies in TOS and even later on in TNG!
JB

You only have to look at Russia over the past century to see how decade by decade hostilities can cool and then heat up again, depending on who is in charge.

 

[Captain Zog]

TWOK is a superb sequel that almost guaranteed that Star Trek would turn into a movie franchise. It introduced the gorgeous red uniforms, placed the focus squarely on the characters to a far greater extent than had been the case in TMP, features the franchise's first fantastic starship battle sequences and boasts a wonderful soundtrack and a powerfully poignant ending.

TUC is also brilliant. It's got a great plot. Indeed, the storyline is more complex than in the earlier film and the Klingons have never had a better movie appearance than they get here. I don't think it's quite as iconic a film though and it doesn't really set the stage for any future productions (by 1991 we already knew the Klingons and Federation will end up as allies courtesy of the TNG). The soundtrack, while still excellent, isn't quite on the same level as Horner's score either. It's a phenomenal final outing for the TOS crew but I think TWOK ranks just that little bit ahead of it in my estimations.

Both are absolute masterpieces though. Only First Contact outclasses them in my eyes.

 

[arch101]

TUC is the better film- better writing, acting and better made even though it was also a budget film. But, it benefits from 5 previous films and 2 years of TNG that dramatically refined the "style" of Trek productions over the 9 years between the films.

 

[Timby]

TUC is the better film- better writing

I have a very hard time calling The Undiscovered Country a well-written movie. Much of the plotting is utterly insipid (oh, gee, there's a traitor on the Enterprise? Surely it isn't the brand-new helmsman out of nowhere!), and some sequences make no sense whatsoever (the terrible editing in the dinner-table scene, for example; the scene as written and filmed is significantly longer and actually has characters having conversations, instead of just slinging random sentences at each other).

 

[arch101]

I have a very hard time calling The Undiscovered Country a well-written movie.

I never said it was a well-written movie, just better than TWOK. The story diverges into well-defined A and B plots, both of which are interesting and neither of which slow the film down. That alone is an achievement in screenwriting.

 

[DonIago]

I wonder whether people who lived through the time period in which TUC was made have a kinder (or, potentially, less kind) sense of the film than those who are removed from the real-world historical context in which it's set.

 

[Ssosmcin]

I wonder whether people who lived through the time period in which TUC was made have a kinder (or, potentially, less kind) sense of the film than those who are removed from the real-world historical context in which it's set.

Having lived since 1967 and seeing every Trek film on release, I didn't think it was a better film than TWOK. And I don't think it's aged half as well. At the time, I was fine with "the wall coming down in outer space" as a concept, but I disliked that it was so damned, as it's been said, ham-fisted.

 

[ChallengerHK]

Agreed. TWOK was a film with a lot of subtlety in its characterization, a film which showed that it cared about its characters. TUC is an entertaining action film with a message that's delivered by hammer. I watch it, I enjoy it, and given the choice I'll always take TWOK.

 

[DonIago]

I wasn't really talking about how opinions might differ in relation to TWOK, but rather opinions of the film on its own merits.

If people who lived through the events would give the film a 7/10 on average, but people who didn't live through the events would give the film a 3/10 on average, then that seems meaningful, though there could obviously be other factors in play.

 

[fireproof78]

I have vague memories of the wall coming down and the historical significance of it was well communicated by my parents. They also both thoroughly enjoyed TUC. So, TUC over TWOK for me, as I enjoy it more.

TWOK is good and the literary themes help it but it has small moments, character oddities and horror moments that I don't care for that make me less likely to rewatch.

 

[Space Socialist]

Agreed. TWOK was a film with a lot of subtlety in its characterization, a film which showed that it cared about its characters. TUC is an entertaining action film with a message that's delivered by hammer. I watch it, I enjoy it, and given the choice I'll always take TWOK.

I saw TUC at the cinema as a child, dragged along by my parents, and it took me rewatching the film nearly two decades later as an adult to realise how utterly unsubtle the parable is in TUC. I mean, just amazingly obvious.

I do like TUC, but the ridiculously on-the-nose way the core has premise of the story really harms it. Plus the scenes on the prison planet feel way to Galaxy Quest for my liking.

 

[Ssosmcin]

I wasn't really talking about how opinions might differ in relation to TWOK, but rather opinions of the film on its own merits.

If people who lived through the events would give the film a 7/10 on average, but people who didn't live through the events would give the film a 3/10 on average, then that seems meaningful, though there could obviously be other factors in play.

Okay without comparisons...

It's a good film and I feel the core idea resonates more when you lived through it. It was more relevant.

But I don't rate a Star Trek film on its relevance. I rate it on how it holds up as a movie. I liked it more in 1991 because it was exciting and funny. Over time, the seams really show. But none of my opinion is based on whether or not I am connecting with the Russia allegory. Messages in Star Trek were always "bonus" material for me.

 

[saddestmoon]

TWoK for me, as I saw it in the movies, as a kid, and it was equal parts terrifying, exciting, and felt quite adult-Trek - and the second movie I watched after seeing SW:ESB (which established for me, a theme of watching sequels at the movies, without having seen the original, until years later).

 

[M.A.C.O.]

TWOK: The Original Space Opera!

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